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Old 04-11-2006, 11:23 PM   #31
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Thanks for sparing us the "worse"
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Old 04-11-2006, 11:25 PM   #32
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better?
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Old 04-12-2006, 02:54 PM   #33
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if i wanted to be a smartass, id've come up with something better than that.
You are dead-on admitting to being the smart ass, and that's across the boards as I've read your other posts.

FYI I do believe in evolution.
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Old 04-12-2006, 06:32 PM   #34
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: In His own image

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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic


Why would believing in a god exclude someone from believing in evolution? I'm a Christian and believe in evolution

I didn't mind your original comment since the thread starter asked for personal opinions, which yours was, but this evolution comment lacks sense.
I agree. I'm also a Christian who believes in evolution. In fact, I think evolution is such an amazing thing that only God could have done it.
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Old 04-13-2006, 04:30 AM   #35
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I once said in another post that the very idea of God is unscientific (i.e. unprovable using the scientific method). I don't believe in God because of scientific facts, and I think any believer that has to get the approval of the scientific method to justify their belief is going to find themselves way in over their head.

Science has its place, and religion has its place. When people (coming from either direction--the believers who try to use science to bolster their faith, or those who do not believe who denigrate faith because it's not scientific) try to mix the two there is always trouble.

Creationism is as unscientific as belief in God, so I think believers like myself can choose to accept a literal account of Creation--acknowledging that science does not support such an account--(as I do) or they can choose to believe in a kind of God ordained evolution (as some other posters here do). Either way, I think is fine. I'm not sure the issue is as critical as all that.

As for those who think the Bible is a crock and don't believe in God, I'm not sure why you'd want to get involved in this discussion at all. Certainly, if you do, I'd at least ask that you be respectful. I'm not a Buddhist but you won't find me weighing in on Buddhist discussions to make fun of Buddha. I'm not an aethist but I'm not going to weigh in on aethist discussions to mock them.

Having said that I have a question for serious posters in this thread:

I agree with just about everyone's take on "In His Image"--the character, the free will, the relationship, the ability to make moral choices, etc.

But, for those of you that know Hebrew, what do you make of Gen. 1:27 "in the image of God he created him, male and female he created them"

Could that imply that masculine and feminine together make up the totality of who God is? While definitely not orthodox Christianity (and I'm about as orthodox as they come, if you hadn't noticed), I've always wondered if there might be a feminine aspect to God.
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Old 04-13-2006, 04:34 AM   #36
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Since this is a U2 forum, I might also add that I think U2 has flirted with this idea of a "feminine" aspect to the Christian God. For example the "The First Time" could be read as describing the Christian concept of the trinity--"I've got a lover" The Holy Spirit,
"I've got a brother"--Jesus, and "My father is a rich man"--The Father.
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Old 04-13-2006, 04:55 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean


But, for those of you that know Hebrew, what do you make of Gen. 1:27 "in the image of God he created him, male and female he created them"

Could that imply that masculine and feminine together make up the totality of who God is? While definitely not orthodox Christianity (and I'm about as orthodox as they come, if you hadn't noticed), I've always wondered if there might be a feminine aspect to God.
Yes, Yes! congratulation, that's a HUGE point you've made here....
that's all right...God HAS a feminine aspect, actually, He is beyond the genders since He created them so it's impossible to say that, but in much of chrstian Africa, well God is represented as a Mother rather than a Father...so it's definately strongly feminine and it's not absolutely anti-orthodox to say that...
and yes, also the second point you're right: when a man and a woman goes toghether, they're much much more similar to God...
It's referred to the mystery of giving life, of giving birth of a child...
It's love that really PRODUCE something...you see? someone said that having a child is the closest you can go to "help God in making a Miracle" and I'm sure that anyone who is father or mother here understand what I'm saying...you breakthru the conception of the ego and you get to start thinking as a "we", as "our"....
when a man loves a woman truly, and from their Love something is born....well you' re really in grace with God and He's with yo. He's thankful for what you've done for Him...
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Old 04-13-2006, 07:34 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean


But, for those of you that know Hebrew, what do you make of Gen. 1:27 "in the image of God he created him, male and female he created them"

Could that imply that masculine and feminine together make up the totality of who God is?
Absolutely! I always find it hilarious when folks want to assign a gender to God.
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Old 04-13-2006, 09:26 AM   #39
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Absolutely! I always find it hilarious when folks want to assign a gender to God.
Exactly - the gender terms referencing God are those He has asked us to use to describe Him - not the projection of our own human qualities (of gender) upon Him.
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Old 04-13-2006, 09:39 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by tommyvill



It's referred to the mystery of giving life, of giving birth of a child...
It's love that really PRODUCE something...you see? someone said that having a child is the closest you can go to "help God in making a Miracle" and I'm sure that anyone who is father or mother here understand what I'm saying...you breakthru the conception of the ego and you get to start thinking as a "we", as "our"....
when a man loves a woman truly, and from their Love something is born....well you' re really in grace with God and He's with yo. He's thankful for what you've done for Him...
Interesting ideas, tommyvill . .I always felt that the ultimate result of love was the creation of life.
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Old 04-13-2006, 12:23 PM   #41
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Even St. Augustine didn't believe God had a gender. He just thought "He" was a figure of speech. I sure as hell don't believe God has a gender. That would be a limitation, and God doesn't have limitations.
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Old 04-13-2006, 01:27 PM   #42
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I'm a little confused by the vague question... Do you mean, does he then embody ourselves or look like us?
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Old 04-13-2006, 08:18 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean
But, for those of you that know Hebrew, what do you make of Gen. 1:27 "in the image of God he created him, male and female he created them"
Other than the problems with the English "image" as a translation for tselem mentioned above, I personally wouldn't take this passage (in either language) to imply that the "male/female" clause is meant to modify the "image" clause, nor was I ever taught in Hebrew school to see it that way. Rather it's a separate and distinct assertion that both sexes were created at once, so as to enable fulfillment of the commandment mentioned in the immediately following verse: "be fertile and increase." Remember, Biblical Hebrew doesn't really use "sentences" or punctuation, so you have to be careful about projecting the somewhat arbitrary grammatical structures necessary for English translation onto it. Also keep in mind that Genesis 1 comes from a wholly different source than Genesis 2-3, where both the creation of sexes and the God's role in that are presented far more anthropomorphically.

It is true, however, that later Jewish commentaries, in the Talmud and particularly in the Kabbalistic (Jewish mystical) texts, sometimes examine this passage in light of the concept of shekhinah, a tough-to-explain and varyingly nuanced term that *can* carry--in a mystical and allegorical way--implications of a divine "feminine." Shekhinah is somewhat similar to Christian concepts like logos or the Holy Spirit--not so much in the abstract "trinitarian" sense, as in the sense seen in, e.g., the John the Baptist narrative or the speaking in tongues story, where the Holy Spirit is portrayed as an extraordinary means by which God is made more tangibly perceptible to humans on certain occasions and for certain purposes. (For OT examples think the burning bush, the pillar of cloud, etc.) In Kabbalah especially, the shekhinah is often seen as "feminine" and sometimes gets tied into common Kabbalistic metaphors for God's relationship to creation as one between dispersed showers of sparks (=creation) and their source (=God). In this particular understanding of the metaphor, the sparks are conceived of as "feminine", their source as "masculine," and the ongoing process of creation as one through which they seek to be reunited through the help of the human task of tikkun olam, the healing and repairing of a shattered cosmos through the power of moral choice and action.

Of course this isn't very "orthodox" from a Jewish standpoint either; it's highly mystical, and almost "Eastern" in the way in which it treats the divine as a "force" simultaneously distinct from and part of the the physical world, rather than as a "personal God" with overt intentionality, character, desires, etc. But it is a lovely way to think about God's relationship to humans, IMHO.
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Old 04-14-2006, 02:14 AM   #44
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Yolland,

Thanks for your informative reply. I can see how the placement of punctuation could make a difference in what's implied.

Funny thing about orthodoxy. I'm not sure it always adds up to being right.

This is how I feel about how much we can know about God. I believe that the ordinary person can learn enough about God from the Scriptures (even with all of our modern misinterpretations, especially for the vast majority of people who don't know the original languages in which it was written) to understand what he wants out of us (to love one another etc), to understand how he feels about us (He loves us), and to establish a trusting relationship with Him. Beyond that, there is much, MUCH, that we may be getting "wrong", not understanding, or simply don't know about God.

I think as long as we acknowledge those limitations we're okay. On the other hand people who claim to have the final word on every aspect of who God is. . .well, I'm growing increasing skeptical of that.
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Old 04-15-2006, 10:18 AM   #45
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Now, a further question. As a Christian, am I obligated to accept any other Biblical authority other than the Gospels--and even then, more than the teachings of Jesus? Are they not sufficient?

(Crusader may, as he has in the past, make the argument that if I do not accept the rest of the Bible, why accept the "red words"? And that's not a bad logical argument and I have no answer to that logically. So for the sake of discussion, assume I accept the "red words" on faith, but I do not believe that all of the Bible speaks with authority.)

I'm just curious as to what others believe.
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