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Old 09-14-2007, 12:26 AM   #121
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Originally posted by namkcuR


That's not the point. We're not talking about the effectiveness(or non-effectiveness) of democracy. We're talking about the idea of forcing ANY governmental system on ANY country. Going from a totalitarian dictatorship to a democracy(or any governmental shift of that magnitude) is a revolution, and more often than not in world history, revolutions start within, not externally. This is not about whether democracy works or not, it's about why America feels like it has the right to force any governmental system at all on anyone. What gives us that right? Why do we think it's our place? Some of us think it is our place, and some of us think we have absolutely no right. That's what this is about.
Was it right for the US Army to invade the Confederate States of America in 1861 and impose its version of democracy? Was the world a better place as a result of this invasion?
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Old 09-14-2007, 12:28 AM   #122
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Originally posted by AEON


Was it right for the US Army to invade the Confederate States of America in 1861 and impose its version of democracy? Was the world a better place as a result of this invasion?
Wow, what a revisionist perspective of history...
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Old 09-14-2007, 12:29 AM   #123
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


yeah, you do, when you say the loss of that many lives is a "good thing" then yes you better back it up with something, it's apparant you can't...

You still haven't told me why democracy HAS to be spread...
If you don't already see that South Korea is a functioning, globally participating, thriving, vibrant, free society and that North Korea is the exact opposite - then nothing I could post would convince you otherwise.
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Old 09-14-2007, 12:31 AM   #124
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Wow, what a revisionist perspective of history...
Are you a Civil War Denier?
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Old 09-14-2007, 12:34 AM   #125
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Are you a Civil War Denier?


No I just deny your warped perception of the civil war...
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Old 09-14-2007, 12:36 AM   #126
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Originally posted by AEON


If you don't already see that South Korea is a functioning, globally participating, thriving, vibrant, free society and that North Korea is the exact opposite - then nothing I could post would convince you otherwise.
Look back at your posts, you said those lives worked for KOREA, and obviously they didn't. But then again revisionist history seems to be your thing...
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Old 09-14-2007, 12:36 AM   #127
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


Was it right for the US Army to invade the Confederate States of America in 1861 and impose its version of democracy? Was the world a better place as a result of this invasion?
It's not the same thing and you know it. That was a CIVIL war, CIVIL being the operative word. Meaning that it was a war between two factions of the same country. I don't care if the south called itself something else, the point is that the south wanted to eventually control all of the country and so did the north. It was a conflict within one country, and both sides wanted it to be one country, they just had different ideas of what morals and ideals and principles the foundation of that country should be based on. It's totally different to invading a completely different country and trying to force on them a system that they never asked us for.
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Old 09-14-2007, 12:39 AM   #128
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Look back at your posts, you said those lives worked for KOREA, and obviously they didn't. But then again revisionist history seems to be your thing...
The war is called the Korean War - and casually referred to as "Korea" just as the Vietnam War is referred to as "Vietnam" or "Nam" - even though the result in the Korean War was to preserve the democracy of South Korea.

I'm sorry for assuming that when I mentioned a democracy on the Korean peninsula people would understand I was referring to SOUTH Korea.
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Old 09-14-2007, 12:41 AM   #129
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Nice cover...
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Old 09-14-2007, 12:43 AM   #130
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I think Aeon is working under the assumption that any American-established (or instigated) democracy in a foreign country will automatically be pro-America.

Let's be honest here. Democracy is a secondary goal here. What Bush and the neocons really want is a pro-US government that will essentially do what we say and give us a stronger foothold in the region. Freedom to the people is a nice slogan, but we (and by we, I mean Bushco) really only care if they do what we say.
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Old 09-14-2007, 12:44 AM   #131
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Originally posted by Diemen
I think Aeon is working under the assumption that any American-established (or instigated) democracy in a foreign country will automatically be pro-America.
Well if they should elect a crazy cleric, you can just bomb them back into submission!
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Old 09-14-2007, 12:46 AM   #132
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Originally posted by namkcuR


I don't care if the south called itself something else,

The South refers to it as the War Between the States, and they most certainly thought they were a separate government. They had their own president, congress, judicial system, ambassadors...etc.

Quote:
Originally posted by namkcuR

It's totally different to invading a completely different country and trying to force on them a system that they never asked us for.
The fact is, the United States imposed a system of racial equality that the Confederate States did not want. Was this right? Most people tend to think so (although most of those living in the South in 1861 would disagree with me).
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Old 09-14-2007, 12:49 AM   #133
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Quote:
Originally posted by Diemen
I think Aeon is working under the assumption that any American-established (or instigated) democracy in a foreign country will automatically be pro-America.

Let's be honest here. Democracy is a secondary goal here. What Bush and the neocons really want is a pro-US government that will essentially do what we say and give us a stronger foothold in the region. Freedom to the people is a nice slogan, but we (and by we, I mean Bushco) really only care if they do what we say.
Are you saying that if spreading democracy was the Primary, not Secondary, goal - then you would support the mission in Iraq?
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Old 09-14-2007, 12:54 AM   #134
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


The South refers to it as the War Between the States, and they most certainly thought they were a separate government. They had their own president, congress, judicial system, ambassadors...etc.



The fact is, the United States imposed a system of racial equality that the Confederate States did not want. Was this right? Most people tend to think so (although most of those living in the South in 1861 would disagree with me).
I'm really starting to feel like you're missing the point on purpose.

The South may have had its own government and what not, but they eventually wanted control of the WHOLE country and they wanted to implent their government on the WHOLE country, and the North wanted their government to STAY implemented in the whole country. It was two factions of the same land fighting for control of that land. It's more comperable to the civil war that's going on in Iraq right now(multiple factions of the same country fighting for control) than it is to any kind of American imperialism.
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Old 09-14-2007, 12:55 AM   #135
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No, not at all, and I don't see how you could draw that conclusion. All I'm saying is that all the Right's rhetoric around this war has been at best half-truths, and, more realistically, bald lies meant to pull at the emotions of average Joe America, without any real substance behind them.

WMDs/Immediate threat? Hah.
Depose a brutal dictator/freedom for the people? If Saddam had been pro-America, Bush wouldn't have lifted a finger.
Spread democracy? Only if they do what we say.
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