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Old 09-12-2007, 09:10 PM   #76
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Jefferson had some things to say on the subject.
True. But loyalty to Jefferson wasn't in the oath I took to protect the Constitution from all enemies...foreign and domestic.

Do I think Cindy can actually carry this out? No. However, the "system" she and her collegues want to bring down is a constitutional republic. Should we simply stand by and allow it to happen? What would they replace it with? (most of us could guess)

I respect the right for people to disagree. As much as it makes me sick, I also respect the right for protesters to march against the war. However, as soon as people start screaming about a revolution - then we enter into a new game.
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Old 09-12-2007, 10:07 PM   #77
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Anyone demanding a revolution to overthrow the US government is a threat.


why would you take her so literally?

but this is what the Right wants -- let's not talk about the war, let's talk about real threats, like CINDY SHEEHAN!!!

we won't lose to Iraqi teenagers, we'll lose to CINDY SHEEHAN!!!
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Old 09-12-2007, 10:10 PM   #78
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Originally posted by AEON

However, the "system" she and her collegues want to bring down is a constitutional republic. Should we simply stand by and allow it to happen? What would they replace it with? (most of us could guess)

I really think you are reading too much into this and are stretching too far...

Many are dissatisfied with what is essentially a two party system, many are dissatisfied with a Congress that isn't being held accountable, etc... and I'm talking about both sides. So your assumptions seem either brainwashed, black and white, or at the very least a very big over reaction.
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Old 09-12-2007, 10:39 PM   #79
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Losing Iraq to AQ/Iran would make us considerably less safe....no matter our foolishness that caused this whole mess.
Entering Iraq in the first place made us considerably less safe.
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Old 09-12-2007, 11:30 PM   #80
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People don't want to overthrow the government, they want new leaders and corrections made to the system. That's the "revolution" that these more extreme protesters want.

What have we accomplished in Iraq, what are we going to accomplish in Iraq, and how does it make America safer? Those are important questions.
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Old 09-13-2007, 01:27 AM   #81
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Originally posted by AEON


Perhaps. Quotes like this are a bit disturbing:

"I was raised in a country by a public school system that taught us that America was good, that America was just. America has been killing people, like my sister over here says, since we first stepped on this continent, we have been responsible for death and destruction. I passed on that bullshit to my son and my son enlisted. I’m going all over the country telling moms: ‘This country is not worth dying for.’

I would never have let [Casey] go and try and defend this morally repugnant system we have. The people are good, the system is morally repugnant.

They’re a bunch of f**king hypocrites! And we need to, we just need to rise up. We need a revolution!"
I don't think they are that very disturbing. They speak the truth.
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Old 09-13-2007, 01:30 AM   #82
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Anyone demanding a revolution to overthrow the US government is a threat.
This is a democracy. She has every right to protest against the government. It seems like people like you (neo-cons) are the greater threat to freedom and democracy.
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Old 09-13-2007, 08:26 AM   #83
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and we're STILL not talking about Iraq!

maybe we can start to blame Jane Fonda for something, after all, she singlehandedly defeated US troops in the Mekong in 1971 and caused us to lose the war.

we all did see those pictures of Sheehan throwing grenads in Fallujah and sniping in Karballah. the woman must be stopped! she's defeating our troops! what a traitor!
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Old 09-13-2007, 08:47 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


Anyone demanding a revolution to overthrow the US government is a threat.
I'm a threat.
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Old 09-13-2007, 09:07 AM   #85
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It is not the job of the soldier to understand the entire reason he or she is being sent into battle. They are given a mission. The "why are we there" question is to be answered by those that send the soldier into battle (Congress and the President)

That being said, I am quite certain this general believes that his mission in Iraq is legal and moral. However, he is unable to draw a direct parallel between his mission and the overall safety of America because that is quite frankly WELL beyond his scope of responsibilities.

You must admit - this man is not an idiot. He was 5th in his class at West Point and has a PhD from Princeton - not something to ignore. He is wise to admit that his focus is Iraq.


Sorry, but this line of thinking, especially if you are the leading general in an operation like the Iraq war is very risky.

"I'm just a soldier doing what I got told to do, without thinking myself", is what got many countries, mine included, into deep trouble.
Blindly following your leaders and not thinking for one second about the country you are meant to serve and protect, not the President or his friends, shouldn't be the soldiers task in these days.
A man with a degree from Princeton and being the fifth best of his class in West Point should be wise enough to assess the big picture on his own, don't you think?
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Old 09-13-2007, 09:44 AM   #86
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Originally posted by Vincent Vega




Sorry, but this line of thinking, especially if you are the leading general in an operation like the Iraq war is very risky.

"I'm just a soldier doing what I got told to do, without thinking myself", is what got many countries, mine included, into deep trouble.
Blindly following your leaders and not thinking for one second about the country you are meant to serve and protect, not the President or his friends, shouldn't be the soldiers task in these days.
A man with a degree from Princeton and being the fifth best of his class in West Point should be wise enough to assess the big picture on his own, don't you think?
Indeed.

Saying that the "just following orders" mentality applies to the Commanding General of an entire war is absolutely foolish.
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Old 09-13-2007, 09:53 AM   #87
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Originally posted by Bluer White


Losing Iraq to AQ/Iran would make us considerably less safe....no matter our foolishness that caused this whole mess.


and so that's why the subtext of Petraeus's testimony is to lay the groundwork for a war against Iran.
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Old 09-13-2007, 09:54 AM   #88
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Indeed.

Saying that the "just following orders" mentality applies to the Commanding General of an entire war is absolutely foolish.


it gets us to My Lai.
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Old 09-13-2007, 11:11 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vincent Vega




Sorry, but this line of thinking, especially if you are the leading general in an operation like the Iraq war is very risky.

"I'm just a soldier doing what I got told to do, without thinking myself", is what got many countries, mine included, into deep trouble.
Blindly following your leaders and not thinking for one second about the country you are meant to serve and protect, not the President or his friends, shouldn't be the soldiers task in these days.
A man with a degree from Princeton and being the fifth best of his class in West Point should be wise enough to assess the big picture on his own, don't you think?
Like Deep said, he can't speculate on something as vague as the overall safety of the country. He is mission focused. He is about facts and figures.

Additionally, there is nothing blind about his service. I would imagine his daily responsibilities dwarf anything most of us will be assigned in our entire lifetime.

(btw - it is not just a degree from Princeton, it was a PhD)
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Old 09-13-2007, 11:13 AM   #90
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Originally posted by Irvine511




it gets us to My Lai.
You are missing the part about moral and legal. He has every right as an American officer to disobey an unlawful or immoral order.
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