in case you thought Patraeus was apolitical ...

[BVS]

 

[Irvine511]

Yes. That is exactly what I want to tell Sean Penn, Cindy Sheehan, and the lovely Code Pink women.

please don't compare them to the legitimate anti-war position, which is that this war, as Petraeus agrees, has not made us safer.

and please don't fall for blaming a few silly leftist elements for the failures of this administration. and please don't buy into the "stabbed in the back" narrative that they're trying to create.

this war is failing because we have an incompetent administration who launched an ill-conceived, non-planned, unnecessary war on a political timetable, and we're paying the price for it. as have hundreds of thousands of Iraqis.

we are not safer. this is not a debatable point. this is what all of our intelligence agencies say.

 

[AEON]

Right. Because they're the ones causing the real damage to America and its reputation.

Yes.

 

[phillyfan26]

Yes.

Are you serious?

 

[AEON]

Are you serious?

Perhaps. Quotes like this are a bit disturbing:

"I was raised in a country by a public school system that taught us that America was good, that America was just. America has been killing people, like my sister over here says, since we first stepped on this continent, we have been responsible for death and destruction. I passed on that bullshit to my son and my son enlisted. I’m going all over the country telling moms: ‘This country is not worth dying for.’

I would never have let [Casey] go and try and defend this morally repugnant system we have. The people are good, the system is morally repugnant.

They’re a bunch of f**king hypocrites! And we need to, we just need to rise up. We need a revolution!"

 

[Irvine511]

firstly, i don't see what's so awful about what Cindy has said. i don't agree with all of it, but for us not to acknowledge things like the Native American genocide and our involvement in many Cold War mix-ups that resulted in the deaths of 10s of thousands would be totally delusional. i'm far more fearful of "National Greatness" conservatives who basically think that if the US does something, it is by definition the right thing to do.

that said, do you really think that Cindy freakin' Sheehan is a greater threat to the US and its reputation than George W. Bush?

anyway, what's going on now is very simple -- the administration is simply running out the clock so they can pass this abomination on to the next (probably Democratic) president.

they don't care about our troops. the never have. they never will.

 

[BVS]

Perhaps. Quotes like this are a bit disturbing:

"I was raised in a country by a public school system that taught us that America was good, that America was just. America has been killing people, like my sister over here says, since we first stepped on this continent, we have been responsible for death and destruction. I passed on that bullshit to my son and my son enlisted. I’m going all over the country telling moms: ‘This country is not worth dying for.’

Well you can't deny certain morally reprehensible acts that this country has executed.

I would never have let [Casey] go and try and defend this morally repugnant system we have. The people are good, the system is morally repugnant.

The people are good, and the system is pretty bad, on all sides. You can't deny that.

They’re a bunch of f**king hypocrites! And we need to, we just need to rise up. We need a revolution!"

Most supporters of this war, in this forum that were of age that have been asked if they would serve, they said no. How many in Washington have children in the war? The list of hypocricies goes on and on.

 

[AEON]

that said, do you really think that Cindy freakin' Sheehan is a greater threat to the US and its reputation than George W. Bush?

Anyone demanding a revolution to overthrow the US government is a threat.

 

[AEON]

Most supporters of this war, in this forum that were of age that have been asked if they would serve, they said no. How many in Washington have children in the war? The list of hypocricies goes on and on. [/B]

I joined in 2003. Senator McCain has a kid in the war. General Petraeus also has a kid in the Army.

 

[BVS]

Anyone demanding a revolution to overthrow the US government is a threat.

I really don't think that's what she's talking about... what a stretch.

MLK lead a revolution without any "overthrow"...

 

[AEON]

I really don't think that's what she's talking about... what a stretch.

MLK lead a revolution without any "overthrow"...

Comparing Cindy sheehan to MLK is a both a stretch and an insult.

 

[BVS]

I joined in 2003. Senator McCain has a kid in the war. General Petraeus also has a kid in the Army.

Yeah, I realize that. But it doesn't make for the fact, that MOST are hypocrites...

 

[BVS]

Comparing Cindy sheehan to MLK is a both a stretch and an insult.

Once again the point went flying over your head.

 

[Bluer White]

he wasn't asked if the surge was making us safer. he was asked if the entire mission was making us safer. [/B]

Losing Iraq to AQ/Iran would make us considerably less safe....no matter our foolishness that caused this whole mess.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Anyone demanding a revolution to overthrow the US government is a threat.

Jefferson had some things to say on the subject.

 

[AEON]

Jefferson had some things to say on the subject.

True. But loyalty to Jefferson wasn't in the oath I took to protect the Constitution from all enemies...foreign and domestic.

Do I think Cindy can actually carry this out? No. However, the "system" she and her collegues want to bring down is a constitutional republic. Should we simply stand by and allow it to happen? What would they replace it with? (most of us could guess)

I respect the right for people to disagree. As much as it makes me sick, I also respect the right for protesters to march against the war. However, as soon as people start screaming about a revolution - then we enter into a new game.

 

[Irvine511]

Anyone demanding a revolution to overthrow the US government is a threat.

why would you take her so literally?

but this is what the Right wants -- let's not talk about the war, let's talk about real threats, like CINDY SHEEHAN!!!

we won't lose to Iraqi teenagers, we'll lose to CINDY SHEEHAN!!!

 

[BVS]

However, the "system" she and her collegues want to bring down is a constitutional republic. Should we simply stand by and allow it to happen? What would they replace it with? (most of us could guess)

I really think you are reading too much into this and are stretching too far...

Many are dissatisfied with what is essentially a two party system, many are dissatisfied with a Congress that isn't being held accountable, etc... and I'm talking about both sides. So your assumptions seem either brainwashed, black and white, or at the very least a very big over reaction.

 

[Diemen]

Losing Iraq to AQ/Iran would make us considerably less safe....no matter our foolishness that caused this whole mess.

Entering Iraq in the first place made us considerably less safe.

 

[phillyfan26]

People don't want to overthrow the government, they want new leaders and corrections made to the system. That's the "revolution" that these more extreme protesters want.

What have we accomplished in Iraq, what are we going to accomplish in Iraq, and how does it make America safer? Those are important questions.

 

[Infinity]

Perhaps. Quotes like this are a bit disturbing:

"I was raised in a country by a public school system that taught us that America was good, that America was just. America has been killing people, like my sister over here says, since we first stepped on this continent, we have been responsible for death and destruction. I passed on that bullshit to my son and my son enlisted. I’m going all over the country telling moms: ‘This country is not worth dying for.’

I would never have let [Casey] go and try and defend this morally repugnant system we have. The people are good, the system is morally repugnant.

They’re a bunch of f**king hypocrites! And we need to, we just need to rise up. We need a revolution!"

I don't think they are that very disturbing. They speak the truth.

 

[Infinity]

Anyone demanding a revolution to overthrow the US government is a threat.

This is a democracy. She has every right to protest against the government. It seems like people like you (neo-cons) are the greater threat to freedom and democracy.

 

[Irvine511]

and we're STILL not talking about Iraq!

maybe we can start to blame Jane Fonda for something, after all, she singlehandedly defeated US troops in the Mekong in 1971 and caused us to lose the war.

we all did see those pictures of Sheehan throwing grenads in Fallujah and sniping in Karballah. the woman must be stopped! she's defeating our troops! what a traitor!

 

[DaveC]

Anyone demanding a revolution to overthrow the US government is a threat.

I'm a threat.

 

[Vincent Vega]

It is not the job of the soldier to understand the entire reason he or she is being sent into battle. They are given a mission. The "why are we there" question is to be answered by those that send the soldier into battle (Congress and the President)

That being said, I am quite certain this general believes that his mission in Iraq is legal and moral. However, he is unable to draw a direct parallel between his mission and the overall safety of America because that is quite frankly WELL beyond his scope of responsibilities.

You must admit - this man is not an idiot. He was 5th in his class at West Point and has a PhD from Princeton - not something to ignore. He is wise to admit that his focus is Iraq.

Sorry, but this line of thinking, especially if you are the leading general in an operation like the Iraq war is very risky.

"I'm just a soldier doing what I got told to do, without thinking myself", is what got many countries, mine included, into deep trouble.
Blindly following your leaders and not thinking for one second about the country you are meant to serve and protect, not the President or his friends, shouldn't be the soldiers task in these days.
A man with a degree from Princeton and being the fifth best of his class in West Point should be wise enough to assess the big picture on his own, don't you think?

 

[DaveC]

Sorry, but this line of thinking, especially if you are the leading general in an operation like the Iraq war is very risky.

"I'm just a soldier doing what I got told to do, without thinking myself", is what got many countries, mine included, into deep trouble.
Blindly following your leaders and not thinking for one second about the country you are meant to serve and protect, not the President or his friends, shouldn't be the soldiers task in these days.
A man with a degree from Princeton and being the fifth best of his class in West Point should be wise enough to assess the big picture on his own, don't you think?

Indeed.

Saying that the "just following orders" mentality applies to the Commanding General of an entire war is absolutely foolish.

 

[Irvine511]

Losing Iraq to AQ/Iran would make us considerably less safe....no matter our foolishness that caused this whole mess.

and so that's why the subtext of Petraeus's testimony is to lay the groundwork for a war against Iran.

 

[Irvine511]

Indeed.

Saying that the "just following orders" mentality applies to the Commanding General of an entire war is absolutely foolish.

it gets us to My Lai.

 

[AEON]

Sorry, but this line of thinking, especially if you are the leading general in an operation like the Iraq war is very risky.

"I'm just a soldier doing what I got told to do, without thinking myself", is what got many countries, mine included, into deep trouble.
Blindly following your leaders and not thinking for one second about the country you are meant to serve and protect, not the President or his friends, shouldn't be the soldiers task in these days.
A man with a degree from Princeton and being the fifth best of his class in West Point should be wise enough to assess the big picture on his own, don't you think?

Like Deep said, he can't speculate on something as vague as the overall safety of the country. He is mission focused. He is about facts and figures.

Additionally, there is nothing blind about his service. I would imagine his daily responsibilities dwarf anything most of us will be assigned in our entire lifetime.

(btw - it is not just a degree from Princeton, it was a PhD)

 

[AEON]

it gets us to My Lai.

You are missing the part about moral and legal. He has every right as an American officer to disobey an unlawful or immoral order.