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Old 09-17-2007, 02:07 PM   #331
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Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean
Using the Democrat's concerns about Saddam, pre-9/11 against them is just wrong. Saddam was a concern--he DID have WMD at one time and he used them. He's the sort who might not have minded giving some friendly shelter to a terrorist group, but the war was an over-reaction to that concern. It still amazes me how people can't see that 9/11 to war in Iraq was NOT a logical progression. Regime change in Saudia Arabia maybe, but Iraq?

I don't have any objection to anyone suggesting the Dems were cowards. . .they were. I don't buy most of their "apologies." That's how they get around admitting they didn't have the guts to do the right thing.

But bottom line, it was the Bush administration that led the way, it was the Bush administration that bungled the execution, and it was Republicans and conservative-talk-show-listening America that both bought and sold the jingoistic bs that got us into this mess.

The Democrats need to apologize, not for being "wrong" but for being cowardly.

The Republicans need to apologize for being wrong.

And the American people who supported this fiasco need to turn Rush OFF and start thinking with their heads instead of responding to emotional manipulation.
AMEN!
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Old 09-17-2007, 02:18 PM   #332
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Originally posted by AEON


The only honorable thing left to do is to fix that mess. I think it is worth a shot for the sake of millions of lives.
But the problem is that we can't fix it. The Sunnis and the Shiites are going to want to kill each other no matter what. Sure, the U.S. troops are making a difference. We are preventing it from being a full blown Civil War. But whenever we leave, its going to explode. It is going to be an outright civil war whether we leave tomorrow or the day after or the year after or the decade after. And the war will go on until the groups come to an agreement, or until one group overtakes another one. It is going to happen. It is happening now even while we are there.

The Republicans say that if we withdraw, then the whole place will explode. I agree. But they fail to mention that there is no such thing as a permanent military solution in terms of our strategy. Our troops are dying every single day. Iraqis are dying every single day. We are spending $300,000,000 a day. And NONE of it will have a long term effect.

The Bush Administration is now saying that we can withdraw some troops by next March. Okay, so we will begin withdrawing, and all the "progress" we have made in the last six months will diminish and the Sunnis and Shiites will fight more and more as more and more U.S. troops leave.

I really don't get Bush. He has said many times that if we announce withdrawal, then our enemies will just wait until we withdraw and then come out and cause violence. But didn't he just announce withdrawal of 30,000 troops?

This is just getting ridiculous. I just don't get how people can buy this garbage.
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Old 09-17-2007, 03:18 PM   #333
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON
I think anyone who voted for the war is 100% "guilty" for starting the war.

However, I certainly blame Bush, Rumsfeld, and Bremer for poorly executing Phase II (after the initial toppling of the government). The only honorable thing left to do is to fix that mess. I think it is worth a shot for the sake of millions of lives.
That's like ignoring the context in which Dennis Kucinich voted against the 9/11 memorial bill.

The only honorable thing to do (if honorable has to be used) is to admit the mistake (way too late) and get out of there already. Nothing will be accomplished by us staying. We can't fix the mess. The mess that we created. That's the problem with this war.
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Old 09-17-2007, 03:28 PM   #334
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Originally posted by maycocksean


And the American people who supported this fiasco need to turn Rush OFF and start thinking with their heads instead of responding to emotional manipulation.
I hardly think Kerry, Edwards, and Hillary Clinton, 3 American people that supported this fiasco by voting for it, listen to Rush Limbaugh. (and neither do I, for the record)
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Old 09-17-2007, 03:32 PM   #335
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Originally posted by AEON


I hardly think Kerry, Edwards, and Hillary Clinton, 3 American people that supported this fiasco by voting for it, listen to Rush Limbaugh. (and neither do I, for the record)


aren't you doing the troops a disservice by assigning blame and seeking to blast the Democrats instead of trying to come up with a solution to this problem?

what are you gaining by trying to tie a rope tied to this brick around the leg of the Dem candidates?
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Old 09-17-2007, 03:47 PM   #336
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Originally posted by Irvine511




aren't you doing the troops a disservice by assigning blame and seeking to blast the Democrats instead of trying to come up with a solution to this problem?

what are you gaining by trying to tie a rope tied to this brick around the leg of the Dem candidates?
I was simply correcting Maycocksean's assumption that those who started the war were all brainwashed Rush-Republicans.

I think there has been a change in strategy. I think were finally seeing some measurable progress. And I think we are on a path to solving the mess. But it needs time, money, and the patience of the electorate.

Simply "Pulling Out Now" is not a valid option. Simply saying "Bush Lied" is not a valid excuse.

In addition, I did "sign on the bottom line" to do my small part in solving the overall problem with terrorism.
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Old 09-17-2007, 04:00 PM   #337
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


Simply "Pulling Out Now" is not a valid option. Simply saying "Bush Lied" is not a valid excuse.
but see here's the thing...i don't know of any politican that is saying "pull out and be done with it". EVERYBODY knows that you can't just pull out and then forget it ever happened. i don't know why so many who support the war have the idea that those who don't want to do that. kucinich, for example, has a very detailed 12-step plan. while the first step of that is to bring home the troops, the rest of the steps require getting back involved with the Global Community like working with international peace keepers, support state reconstruction back by Iraqui workers.

i think saying "pulling out now will make matters worse" or whatever is something that we all know. it is important to keep in mind that pulling out means pulling out of troops and contractors. it does not mean we are pulling out our support for the nation to rebuild itself.
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Old 09-17-2007, 04:05 PM   #338
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Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean
Using the Democrat's concerns about Saddam, pre-9/11 against them is just wrong. Saddam was a concern--he DID have WMD at one time and he used them. He's the sort who might not have minded giving some friendly shelter to a terrorist group, but the war was an over-reaction to that concern. It still amazes me how people can't see that 9/11 to war in Iraq was NOT a logical progression. Regime change in Saudia Arabia maybe, but Iraq?

I don't have any objection to anyone suggesting the Dems were cowards. . .they were. I don't buy most of their "apologies." That's how they get around admitting they didn't have the guts to do the right thing.

But bottom line, it was the Bush administration that led the way, it was the Bush administration that bungled the execution, and it was Republicans and conservative-talk-show-listening America that both bought and sold the jingoistic bs that got us into this mess.

The Democrats need to apologize, not for being "wrong" but for being cowardly.

The Republicans need to apologize for being wrong.

And the American people who supported this fiasco need to turn Rush OFF and start thinking with their heads instead of responding to emotional manipulation.
Sean nailed it!!

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Old 09-17-2007, 04:08 PM   #339
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


In addition, I did "sign on the bottom line" to do my small part in solving the overall problem with terrorism.
So then don't you feel cheated that our resources and money went into a war that wasn't about terrorism?
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Old 09-17-2007, 04:14 PM   #340
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


So then don't you feel cheated that our resources and money went into a war that wasn't about terrorism?
or perhaps that $9 billion of it has gone missing/unaccounted for?
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Old 09-17-2007, 05:44 PM   #341
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


I was simply correcting Maycocksean's assumption that those who started the war were all brainwashed Rush-Republicans.


he's right, though.

now supporters of the war, in 2002, that's a different story.



Quote:
In addition, I did "sign on the bottom line" to do my small part in solving the overall problem with terrorism.
do you think Iraq makes us more or less safe?

(i know what the NIE says)
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Old 09-17-2007, 06:04 PM   #342
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I would have quoted Sean too.
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Old 09-17-2007, 06:23 PM   #343
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511


he's right, though.

now supporters of the war, in 2002, that's a different story.





do you think Iraq makes us more or less safe?

(i know what the NIE says)
I think in the long term (meaning the next 5 to 25 years) - the war in Iraq will make us more safe. Having forces smack in the heart of the Middle East to prevent any kind of Caliphate is good. Having forces to prevent a group like al Queda from having control of an oil producing nation is good.
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Old 09-17-2007, 07:06 PM   #344
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Originally posted by AEON


I think in the long term (meaning the next 5 to 25 years) - the war in Iraq will make us more safe. Having forces smack in the heart of the Middle East to prevent any kind of Caliphate is good. Having forces to prevent a group like al Queda from having control of an oil producing nation is good.


but does our presence not enrage the dispossessed, unemployed masses across the Muslim world? does this not become a training ground for Al Qaeda where they get to practice on American soldiers by night and get trained by them during the day? isn't one of the reasons for 9-11 as listed by OBL the presence of American troops in Saudi Arabia?

and didn't the NIE say, point blank, that we are less safe because of Iraq?
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Old 09-17-2007, 07:09 PM   #345
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


I think in the long term (meaning the next 5 to 25 years) - the war in Iraq will make us more safe. Having forces smack in the heart of the Middle East to prevent any kind of Caliphate is good. Having forces to prevent a group like al Queda from having control of an oil producing nation is good.

Or keeping forces there will just help in getting those recruitment numbers up...
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