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Old 09-14-2007, 07:11 PM   #226
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Quote:
Originally posted by Infinitum98


The sanctions were working fine. Iraq wasn't a threat to anyone.



in all fairness, while Saddam was effectively contained, the Iraqi people were suffering, and this became a source of discontent in the Muslim world.
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Old 09-14-2007, 07:15 PM   #227
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Originally posted by Irvine511




phased withdrawal that begins now.

redeployment to Kurdistan and Anbar to manage from afar.
I think Gates is taking your advice:
Gates hopes to cut Iraq troop levels to 100,000
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Old 09-14-2007, 07:17 PM   #228
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511





in all fairness, while Saddam was effectively contained, the Iraqi people were suffering, and this became a source of discontent in the Muslim world.
That is true, the Iraqis were suffering. I meant however that Iraq wasn't a threat to any other country.
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Old 09-14-2007, 07:30 PM   #229
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511





in all fairness, while Saddam was effectively contained, the Iraqi people were suffering, and this became a source of discontent in the Muslim world.
Didn't stop the money from flowing to the regime either; or offer a means of getting American troops out of Saudi Arabia.
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Old 09-15-2007, 12:34 AM   #230
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Originally posted by Infinitum98


Well without the WMD lie, the 9/11 connection lie, the threat to the U.S. lie, the harboring of al-Qaeda lie, it would have been next to impossible for Bush to convince Congress or the American people to go to war.

And that is why they needed all these lies.
It is amazing the Democrats voted overwhelmingly for this war. Although it is easy to see how the articulate, smooth, and unctuous George W. manipulated them all. Who could ever escape his magnetic charm and rapier wit?
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Old 09-15-2007, 03:02 AM   #231
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It is amazing the Democrats voted overwhelmingly for this war. Although it is easy to see how the articulate, smooth, and unctuous George W. manipulated them all. Who could ever escape his magnetic charm and rapier wit?
Few. Ron Paul being one of them. Though you can't not blame Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, and Colin Powell for brainwashing the American people through countless T.V. appearances that Iraq had a hand in 9/11 and also held WMD's, part of the blame does lie in the stupidity of Congress. I was 15 years old when we sent in weapons inspectors into Iraq and then eventually sent troops in, and I can honestly say right now that I was against it from the beginning. And if a 15 year old like me could see that this war was unnecessary from the beginning, then Congress definitely should have seen it.

So yes I do blame Hillary Clinton and the other members of Congress who now say that they were lied to. Yes, they were lied to, but they should have known better. And that is why someone like Ron Paul gets my support. Because he had the wisdom in that situation to go against the crowd, especially while being a Republican.

I know that Ron Paul is not doing that great in the ratings. But i'm going to be honest. Hillary Clinton will most likely be the democratic nominee and will crush the Republican candidate over the Iraq War debate which will cause us to lose the election. Unless if we nominate Ron Paul, he is the only one who has an even better history then Hillary on the issue of this war.
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Old 09-15-2007, 04:56 AM   #232
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How do you reconcile your hawkish beliefs with your religious beliefs?
I'm guessing you don't have an answer for this?
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Old 09-15-2007, 06:43 AM   #233
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He's bringing back old-world evangelization. Bringing democracy, by use of force, to the heathens because we know what's best for them.
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Old 09-15-2007, 08:48 AM   #234
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Originally posted by AEON
It is amazing the Democrats voted overwhelmingly for this war. Although it is easy to see how the articulate, smooth, and unctuous George W. manipulated them all. Who could ever escape his magnetic charm and rapier wit?
At least they had the decency to admit they were wrong and are now against it.

All I remember is hearing about all this intelligence we had and how we knew better than the UN cause of our intelligence information.

And, if I recall, Barack Obama was against the war before it started.
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Old 09-15-2007, 09:13 AM   #235
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Re: in case you thought Patraeus was apolitical ...

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
... you can take that delusion and stuff it.

he's giving a one-hour exclusive interview to Brit Hume tomorrow after he gives a glowing report about "the surge" to Congress all day long.

i'm sure he'll be tired after all that testifyin' (testify!), so no hard questions, mmm-kay?

you know, "the surge" that was supposed to enable a political reconciliation in Iraq? we can talk all day about how this neighborhood has 30% fewer murders (but let's not talk about the Iraqis who've fled, and remember, Iraqis who've been shot in the head through the forehead aren't victims of ethnic violence but criminal violence, and that's a big difference) but there's no getting around the fact that there's been absolutely no, none, nada political progress in Iraq and we've given said "surge" 9 months.

a big round of applause to the total politicization of any and all policy and intelligence. that's the true legacy of the Bush administration. there is no policy that's formulated independent of the political.

and shame on Patraeus. but, hey, when you want to be on the R ticket in 2012, one has to put things other than the troops on the ground first.
Interesting points, especially about the statistical manipulation of political deaths versus murders. Everyone's so quick to uphold Petraus as a God, but he's just a human being subject to all the frailties we all are. He's been given a prestigeous job and he'd find it hard to say I can't do it; let someone else. He's not perfect, and there's no reason to supply him with perfect morality and knowledge. Conservatives are just using him as an excuse. They weren't too interested in standing up for military men when Rumsfeld was firing man of them and bullied and got rid of General Shinseki for opposing the war.
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Old 09-15-2007, 09:17 AM   #236
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Quote:
Originally posted by Infinitum98


Few. Ron Paul being one of them. Though you can't not blame Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, and Colin Powell for brainwashing the American people through countless T.V. appearances that Iraq had a hand in 9/11 and also held WMD's, part of the blame does lie in the stupidity of Congress. I was 15 years old when we sent in weapons inspectors into Iraq and then eventually sent troops in, and I can honestly say right now that I was against it from the beginning. And if a 15 year old like me could see that this war was unnecessary from the beginning, then Congress definitely should have seen it.

So yes I do blame Hillary Clinton and the other members of Congress who now say that they were lied to. Yes, they were lied to, but they should have known better. And that is why someone like Ron Paul gets my support. Because he had the wisdom in that situation to go against the crowd, especially while being a Republican.

I know that Ron Paul is not doing that great in the ratings. But i'm going to be honest. Hillary Clinton will most likely be the democratic nominee and will crush the Republican candidate over the Iraq War debate which will cause us to lose the election. Unless if we nominate Ron Paul, he is the only one who has an even better history then Hillary on the issue of this war.
I quite like Ron Paul and Democrat Mike Gravel's sole willingness to speak honestly about America's cruelty in the Middle East and its cause in the current instability and terrorism. All the others are ready to attack Iran, but these two tell the American people the truth about what American has done to Iran for decades. Good for them!
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Old 09-15-2007, 09:21 AM   #237
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511





in all fairness, while Saddam was effectively contained, the Iraqi people were suffering, and this became a source of discontent in the Muslim world.
Very much agreed. Clinton is partly to blame for continuing the exaggeration in the American public mind about the thread Saddam Hussein posed.

According to Scott Ritter, it was Bill Clinton who oversaw the CIA's illegal infiltration into the UN Weapons Inspection regime. Saddam didn't want this, so he kicked the weapons inspectors out. If Clinton hadn't botched this, the weapons inspectors would have been able to know Saddam didn't have WMDs.
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Old 09-15-2007, 10:27 AM   #238
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Originally posted by Infinitum98




So yes I do blame Hillary Clinton and the other members of Congress who now say that they were lied to. Yes, they were lied to, but they should have known better.
Well who can really blame her for believing Bush? After all - all of these distinguished people, including her legendary husband, said the same thing. (NOTE - George W. Bush took office in Jan. 2001)

Quote:
"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
- President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
- President Bill Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

"We must stop Saddam from ever again jeopardizing the stability and security of his neighbors with weapons of mass destruction."
- Madeline Albright, Feb 1, 1998

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."
- Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
Letter to President Clinton.
- (D) Senators Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, others, Oct. 9, 1998

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
- Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998

"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and th! e means of delivering them."
- Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
- Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members ... It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
- Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002

"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real..."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force -- if necessary -- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002
(sources can be found here:
Sources of Quotes)
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Old 09-15-2007, 11:12 AM   #239
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


It is amazing the Democrats voted overwhelmingly for this war. Although it is easy to see how the articulate, smooth, and unctuous George W. manipulated them all. Who could ever escape his magnetic charm and rapier wit?


but this still avoids the issue: the Republicans led the country into a disasterous war in Iraq which has made the United States and the rest of the region far less safer.

you can point fingers all you want and call the Dems enablers, but it's still you people that have been drinking long, greedy gulps of spiked Kool Aid for the past 6 years, and this mess is your responsibility.
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Old 09-15-2007, 11:16 AM   #240
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Well who can really blame her for believing Bush? After all - all of these distinguished people, including her legendary husband, said the same thing. (NOTE - George W. Bush took office in Jan. 2001)


could it also be possible that many people didn't think that this adminsitration would turn out to the THE MOST INCOMPETENT IN HISTORY? is it possible that, maybe, just maybe, the authorization of the use of force, IF NECESSARY, wasn't a carte blanche, but an agreement to give the president the ability to use the threat of force as a negotiating tool? is it possible that no one thought he'd acutally go to war in the way that he did with no allies but the UK? is it possible that everyone believed that he would have had a post-war plan? is it possible that people belived that the Bush adminstration WOULD HAVE DONE THEIR HOMEWORK and not done things like DISSOLVE THE ARMY?

i can only hold the 2002 Congress so responsible.

you can dodge and point fingers, but it sounds like you're the guy who got really drunk, jumped up on the bar and started to dance to "honkey tonk woman" and you fell off and you broke your arm, and you're blaming the bartender for serving you drinks.
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