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Old 09-14-2007, 04:56 PM   #196
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Originally posted by anitram
AEON, as a supporter of democracy, would you be fine with the Saudis electing an al-Qaeda leader as Prime Minister (provided we bombed them out of their monarchy) and Iraq electing al-Sadr as theirs?

I mean, the Shiites could most certainly do so in a democratic process, as an expression of their will. Would you be supportive of that or is it then time to remove him a la Saddam?
That's a good question. It seems that if an elected leader changes a democracy into "something other" - then it fails to remain a democracy.
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Old 09-14-2007, 04:58 PM   #197
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Originally posted by AEON


I also wonder how many lives were needlessly lost because we didn't bomb soon enough (World War II and over 72 MILLION lives immediately comes to mind)
The highest estimate to my knowledge is 60 million, but anyways, it makes me feel sick and sad how you equate WWII to these current wars.

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That's a good question. It seems that if an elected leader changes a democracy into "something other" - then it fails to remain a democracy.
Who says he changes it? Only because his politics don't reflect on what America wishes?
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Old 09-14-2007, 05:03 PM   #198
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No, but the argument that Iraq was invaded exclusively on the basis of WMD is demonstrably false.


but it's demonstrably true that the language used by the Bushies throughout 2002 when speaking to the American public about this focused almost exclusively on WMDs, mushroom clouds, and "like we saw on 9-11."

it might not be factual that we invaded exclusively on WMDs, but it is truthful that we did.

you were never, ever going to get the American public to send their sons and daughters to leave limbs in the sand under the premise of removing a very bad man from power. they needed to create a sense of urgency, and a sense of threat, from Manhattan to Seattle, and they chose to focus on WMDs in order to do so.
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Old 09-14-2007, 05:04 PM   #199
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Originally posted by AEON


That's a good question. It seems that if an elected leader changes a democracy into "something other" - then it fails to remain a democracy.


so where does it stop?

is it possible that some cultures can live and thrive by a system other than a liberal democracy?

you do realize you sound *exactly* like a late 19th century british aristocrat.
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Old 09-14-2007, 05:05 PM   #200
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Originally posted by Vincent Vega


The highest estimate to my knowledge is 60 million, but anyways, it makes me feel sick and sad how you equate WWII to these current wars.



Who says he changes it? Only because his politics don't reflect on what America wishes?
Well - France doesn't do what we wish and we don't bomb it. The point is that if a democratically elected leader turns the country into a dictatorship after he takes office, it is no longer a democracy but a dictatorship.
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Old 09-14-2007, 05:07 PM   #201
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Originally posted by Irvine511



you do realize you sound *exactly* like a late 19th century british aristocrat.
Is that bad?
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Old 09-14-2007, 05:14 PM   #202
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You can screw up your country without leaving the path of a disguised democracy.
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Old 09-14-2007, 05:14 PM   #203
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you're not resurrecting the infamous 1441, are you?
Where IS Sting? It seems like it's been a good while since I got to see him use 1441 as his answer to all antiwar arguements.
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Old 09-14-2007, 05:15 PM   #204
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Originally posted by AEON


Well - France doesn't do what we wish and we don't bomb it. The point is that if a democratically elected leader turns the country into a dictatorship after he takes office, it is no longer a democracy but a dictatorship.
Iran has elections

and the people choose their leaders


yet, is it W's policy to push for and support regime change in Iran

and they are even financing and supporting underground groups for that goal.
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Old 09-14-2007, 05:18 PM   #205
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Originally posted by namkcuR


Where IS Sting? It seems like it's been a good while since I got to see him use 1441 as his answer to all antiwar arguements.
His last post was in May.
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Old 09-14-2007, 05:21 PM   #206
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Originally posted by Irvine511




so where does it stop?

is it possible that some cultures can live and thrive by a system other than a liberal democracy?

you do realize you sound *exactly* like a late 19th century british aristocrat.
Yes Arab and Muslim states as a whole are set to be culturally conditioned as violent sectarian backwaters either in a state of anarchy or unified under brutal dictators. Pinning either Saddam Hussein or the Civil War to some innate cultural quality rather than the history of partitioning the states and the selection and support of compliant leaders by outside powers seems a rather weak line of argument.
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Old 09-14-2007, 05:22 PM   #207
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


Well - France doesn't do what we wish and we don't bomb it. The point is that if a democratically elected leader turns the country into a dictatorship after he takes office, it is no longer a democracy but a dictatorship.
But thats a fine line when your supporting a government under siege, it takes measures that are anti-democratic and anti-liberty.
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Old 09-14-2007, 05:27 PM   #208
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Yes Arab and Muslim states as a whole are set to be culturally conditioned as violent sectarian backwaters either in a state of anarchy or unified under brutal dictators. Pinning either Saddam Hussein or the Civil War to some innate cultural quality rather than the history of partitioning the states and the selection and support of compliant leaders by outside powers seems a rather weak line of argument.


this is so liberal of you. it's a more in-depth answer than my one-sentence remark, but i agree with you.

i'm surprised to see a turnaround on the "religion of the sword" viewpoint.
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Old 09-14-2007, 05:32 PM   #209
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No turnabout, in fact if one supposed that the Iraqi people were savages then supporting any action that included nation building would be hypocritical.
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Old 09-14-2007, 05:35 PM   #210
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
No turnabout, in fact if one supposed that the Iraqi people were savages then supporting any action that included nation building would be hypocritical.


but is Islam incompatible with democracy?
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