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Old 09-14-2007, 11:10 AM   #151
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Krauthammer is doing exactly what he's paid to do. tow the line, and keep us distracted -- the problem in Iraq is Al-Qaeda! -- from what's the central issue here: a civil war that will likely spread throughout the middle east.

you'll notice that we've really, really, really lowered the goalposts, and Krauthammer's attempts at triumphalism -- Petraeus answered questions! -- is pathetically weak. we're trying to salvage what we can, as he even admits, and he's doing as much as he can to shift blame for this debacle on Democrats, even though this has been a Republican war from start to finish.

and Krauthammer doesn't even bother with the central question: has "the surge" achieved it's stated goals, which is to bring about political change through creating more stability.

the answer is NO.

by any standard, the surge, and Petraeus, have failed.
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Old 09-14-2007, 11:58 AM   #152
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by any standard, the surge, and Petraeus, have failed.
C'mon - even Democrats agree the Surge has worked militarily, even in some small degree. They seem to be arguing that this has not translated into political gains.
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Old 09-14-2007, 12:03 PM   #153
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Where is the passion to bring our troops home from Kosovo? Where is the outrage? Where are the parades? We have been there since 1999.
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Old 09-14-2007, 12:14 PM   #154
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C'mon - even Democrats agree the Surge has worked militarily, even in some small degree. They seem to be arguing that this has not translated into political gains.

NO! this is the big misconception.

Bush stated, in January, that the goal of the surge was to bring about POLITICAL change through increased stability.

there hasn't been any political change, in fact, it's gotten worse over 2007.

there's no discussion or argument about it.
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Old 09-14-2007, 12:15 PM   #155
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Where is the passion to bring our troops home from Kosovo? Where is the outrage? Where are the parades? We have been there since 1999.


are 120 American kids dying a month in Kosovo?
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Old 09-14-2007, 12:22 PM   #156
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are 120 American kids dying a month in Kosovo?
So, if less American were dying a month you would support the Iraq war?
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Old 09-14-2007, 12:22 PM   #157
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Having spent some time this week with two independent unembedded journalists recently home from Iraq, getting the kind of first person information that makes me want to cover my ears and eyes and curl up in the fetal postion and never hear anything about it again, the notion that the surge is working would be completely laughable were it not so utterly tragic.
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Old 09-14-2007, 12:24 PM   #158
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NO! this is the big misconception.

Bush stated, in January, that the goal of the surge was to bring about POLITICAL change through increased stability.

there hasn't been any political change, in fact, it's gotten worse over 2007.

there's no discussion or argument about it.
I seem to recall that the goal was security first, then political stability would follow. You have to allow some time for the gains in security to translate into political success.
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Old 09-14-2007, 12:25 PM   #159
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Originally posted by joyfulgirl
two independent unembedded journalists .
Would love to see some background here
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Old 09-14-2007, 12:27 PM   #160
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So, if less American were dying a month you would support the Iraq war?


this is getting frustrating.

Americans are dying because there's a civil war over there. when we toppled Saddam -- because he was just such a threat and a menace -- we unleashed hundreds of years of ethnic hatred. it has nothing to do with X amount of soldiers dying, it has everything to do with the fact that we shouldn't be there in the first place, and even if we are there, there's no measurable goal or endpoint or vision of what "victory" looks like. and the Bushies know this too -- notice Bush says the word "victory" about as often these days as he says "Osama Bin Laden."
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Old 09-14-2007, 12:28 PM   #161
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I seem to recall that the goal was security first, then political stability would follow. You have to allow some time for the gains in security to translate into political success.


it's been 9 months.

the surge will have to end by March of 2008 because the US military cannot sustain it any longer.

and there's been nothing to speak of politically. nothing. and that was the goal.

how much longer do we keep pursuing a strategy that is demonstrably not working?
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Old 09-14-2007, 12:31 PM   #162
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Originally posted by Irvine511




it's been 9 months.

the surge will have to end by March of 2008 because the US military cannot sustain it any longer.

and there's been nothing to speak of politically. nothing. and that was the goal.

how much longer do we keep pursuing a strategy that is demonstrably not working?
What is the alternative strategy that has been proposed?
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Old 09-14-2007, 12:33 PM   #163
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What is the alternative strategy that has been proposed?


phased withdrawal that begins now.

redeployment to Kurdistan and Anbar to manage from afar.
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Old 09-14-2007, 12:37 PM   #164
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Would love to see some background here
http://www.dahrjamailiraq.com/

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarti...m?ItemID=13539
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Old 09-14-2007, 12:49 PM   #165
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phased withdrawal that begins now.

redeployment to Kurdistan and Anbar to manage from afar.
Isn't that what Bush just announced?
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