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Old 07-13-2006, 04:09 PM   #16
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Originally posted by Irvine511
i don't understand what you're saying here -- what conclusion are you drawing?
Add me to the list; I am also puzzled. Perhaps something about the relationship (or lack thereof) between racism and socioeconomic/sociopolitical power? I recall nb has expressed discomfort with the distinction between institutional racism and holding prejudicial views towards other racial groups in the past. But I am just speculating here, and cannot really explain how that might be (or not) applied to this study.

At any rate, I was not surprised by the actual findings either. I have numerous times encountered highly disparaging views of African-Americans in India. In my experience and impression, they can usually be traced to the way the person holding said views interpreted the images and actions of African-American characters they saw in American films or TV shows (not necessarily films or shows it would occur to you or me to see as transmitting disparaging views). But my knowledge of Mexican sociology is essentially zilch, so I would be at a loss to comment there. I do have a problem with the way this study, at least as presented to the media, generalizes from an overwhelmingly Mexican-American sample (per the article) to "Latinos"; as Muggsy indicated, in many Latin American countries, people of or with African descent comprise a significant amount of the population (versus just 0.5% in Mexico, according to Wikipedia), yet are not necessarily perceived as a distinct social strata in a way readily analogizable to "race" as we generally understand that term in the US. Furthermore, many Mexican-American figures, Richard Rodrigues for example, have written at some length about the extent to which skin color and other "ancestral" markers are perceived in Mexico as entailing a prejudicial hierarchy of sorts, despite the official line that we're (almost) all just "mestizo" and that's that.

The disjuncture between which groups saw themselves having the most in common with which other groups further reminds me of the way in which past immigrant groups, the Irish for example ("smoked Irish" was once a common vulgarism for blacks, especially freedmen) slowly came, through no small effort on their part, to be widely perceived as "white"--with attendant rise in social status, coupled with attendant rise in said group's overt hostility towards African-Americans. Perhaps my analogy is flawed in that much of the hostility in these cases was apparently "absorbed", not imported, and increased with time--though the study does say that the trend towards declining hostility among Latinos "was too small to be statistically significant." (Plus, I would question whether it was so much the case that [e.g.] Irish-Americans passively "absorbed" racist views, as opposed to such views forming and "hardening" quasi-internally--and likely building upon "imported," if formerly vague and abstract, prejudices--through the often-ugly process of competing for a place at the table.) Nonetheless, the general pattern of coincidentally(?) seeing one's "group" as having more in common with the majority (and less in common with the minority, a status one presumably hopes to escape) seems an interesting parallel.
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Old 07-13-2006, 05:14 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by yolland

At any rate, I was not surprised by the actual findings either. I have numerous times encountered highly disparaging views of African-Americans in India. In my experience and impression, they can usually be traced to the way the person holding said views interpreted the images and actions of African-American characters they saw in American films or TV shows (not necessarily films or shows it would occur to you or me to see as transmitting disparaging views).
Also interesting to note that humans can hold "prejudicial views" that may not be considered "racist" per se, but are just as...um...ick.

In Pakistan, where i'm from, the bias against darker colored people is quite common and it seems, therefore, readily accepted as a norm. Lighter colored Pakistanis or Indians (especially women) are preferred to darker colored Pakistanis. This can be seen in the subcontinent's pop culture...in movies, in advertisements, etc. The hero, or heroine, is always lighter colored (check out any Bollywood movie...any dance scene...the heroine is likely dancing surrounded by darker colored women/men; she stands out that way more). This attitude was even prevalent in our family; my older sister was dark, my younger sister was quite fair. We'd hear many relatives' (usually aunts) worries "How're you ever going to find a husband for her (the darker sister)?" And my female cousins always wore loooong hand gloves, even in the summer, when driving or being outside in the sun because they didn't want to tan and become darker. Stoopid.

The prejudice against blacks in Pakistan (there's a native black population in Pakistan...very small), was, therefore, strictly about color...they were the darkest; same attitude toward Bengalis.

I've heard of similar biases within the North American black communities, but don't know much about it. I think Spike Lee made reference to such attitudes in one of his early '90s films (was it "She's gotta have it" or something?).

Like i said, this is obviously different from one "race" (i.e. Latinos) negatively seeing another (black people)...but, in the end, it's stating the obvious that all such attitudes suck donkey arse.
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Old 07-13-2006, 09:56 PM   #18
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I’m not sure how this thread turned into an analysis of my comments instead of the underlying study. Taking into account the prevailing views held here (as revealed by responses to other threads over the years), I would think the study’s findings would contradict the assumptions held by fellow members. We have seen everything from the use of historical arguments to justify current day racism to pictures of decades old lynchings to validate conclusions of guilt in purported racial crimes. One of the clear showings of the study was that the racial prejudices revealed by the study had nothing to do with history, local culture or economic disparity.
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Old 07-13-2006, 10:24 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
One of the clear showings of the study was that the racial prejudices revealed by the study had nothing to do with history, local culture or economic disparity.


well, you're still being incredibly vague, but i think the point Yolland has made, and my experiences would back them up, is that American history, local culture, and economic disparity are quite easily exported via popular culture that help to shape the same racists stereotypes held of African-Americans in other countries.

i don't think this study says nearly what you think it does.
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Old 07-13-2006, 10:39 PM   #20
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Do you have an opinion on the study, or just my comments?

The idea that universal views of African Americans are a product of US culture is hardly supported here.
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Old 07-13-2006, 10:51 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Do you have an opinion on the study, or just my comments?

The idea that universal views of African Americans are a product of US culture is hardly supported here.


i don't think the study says much of anything.

you're the one who posted it.

i also think you should take a look at Japan and investigate the cultural fetishization of African-American culture amongst Japanese youth. it might provide some very interesting insights as to how stereotypes are exported.
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Old 07-13-2006, 10:52 PM   #22
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All I know is that racists make me extremely angry.
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Old 07-13-2006, 10:55 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
I’m not sure how this thread turned into an analysis of my comments instead of the underlying study.
Who was "analyzing" your comments? Irvine and BVS made two one-sentence posts each, expressing simple puzzlement and nothing else. I threw in an additional sentence taking a baldfaced guess at what you might have meant (which I didn't present as anything but a baldfaced guess) followed by two paragraphs of commentary entirely my own.

Perhaps you could elaborate a bit as to why you see "the longstanding and perhaps convenient view of race relations" as requiring that "history, local culture or economic disparity" always prove in and of themselves sufficient to explain the existence of prejudice towards other racial groups. I have no idea if I'm included among those who hold "convenient views of race relations," but why for example would I even have mentioned that I've encountered negative views of African-Americans in India if I meant to argue that it was all so simple and convenient?

Also, I can't tell if you intended this or not, but all three of your response posts come across as curt and highly annoyed, as if you think we were disingenuously setting out to tweak you by expressing sincere confusion.
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Old 07-13-2006, 11:14 PM   #24
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Yolland, I appreciate your comments here, both to the study and the discussion. Having watched posting styles for 4 years, I unfortunately let myself get annoyed by some posts.

What stuck me about the study was the professor's surprise at the low levels of stereotypes by whites. Many times, I've seen a view expressed that suggests white Southerners hold negative stereotypes as just part of who they are.

As for arguments of past racism justifying current policy, this study seems to run contrary to the continued validity of that view. You are essentially telling a person today that they may always be responsible for the actions of their predecessors, despite positive changes in relations.
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Old 07-14-2006, 02:10 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


What stuck me about the study was the professor's surprise at the low levels of stereotypes by whites. Many times, I've seen a view expressed that suggests white Southerners hold negative stereotypes as just part of who they are.

Ok, I kinda see what you're getting at now, BUT you have to understand the focus of the survey and where it was performed.

Only 500 people, and it was in a COLLEGE area of the south...
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Old 07-14-2006, 09:38 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
One of the clear showings of the study was that the racial prejudices revealed by the study had nothing to do with history, local culture or economic disparity.
that's why I posted "so basically Latino's are as likely to be racists as white people"

I don't think a study was needed to come to that conclusion though
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Old 07-14-2006, 09:56 AM   #27
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The sampling doesn't say much about the views of the citizens living throughout the US. Did the teams only sample students, if so what were the ages? What was the population of the study beyond it being a college in south and 500 people. Ages, income, ethnic background...I don't think the study or at least what was released provided enough information.
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Old 07-14-2006, 10:09 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
As for arguments of past racism justifying current policy, this study seems to run contrary to the continued validity of that view. You are essentially telling a person today that they may always be responsible for the actions of their predecessors, despite positive changes in relations.


i think this is a misformulation -- it's not that people are responsible for the actions of their predecessors, but that they have benefited economically from the actions of their predecessors at the expense of others and as such bear some responsibility towards correcting historical wrongs. how much is usually the question, and it could be addressed in various ways perhaps through reparations (which i don't think make any sense) or affirmative action programs (which i think benefit everybody, within reason).

also, after my weekend in rural Tennessee, i heard it said several times by whites that racism was indeed part of the culture down there and i was taken aback by the level of casual racism as well as the willingness on the part of the specific white people i was staying with to readily acknolwedge that they hold a rather dim view of the African-Americans in that area.

what also struck me was how one woman readily admitted that she knew that African-Americans in, say, San Francisco or Seattle were "different" than the African-Americans in northern Mississippi, and that race-relations were simply "different" in the South, and much of the racism they said was fuled by the level of black-on-white crime and violence in the area.

so, take that for what you will.

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Old 07-14-2006, 12:15 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Salome
that's why I posted "so basically Latino's are as likely to be racists as white people"

I don't think a study was needed to come to that conclusion though
it really hurts me too see you assumming that. If I said that white people are racists I would get banned in two seconds. I won't say it because I don't believe it.

that's what I hate of those studies: Many people will think that we are all racists, because of 500 people,and that's far of the truth.. I really feel offended by phrases like this because you don't know me and reading all your posts it seems that you won't do an effort to make another conclusion.

Lore.
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Old 07-14-2006, 12:32 PM   #30
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I didn't say that white people are racists or that latino's are racists
I said that it's probably as likely to find racism among white people as among latino's (or vice versa)

I have no idea how that statement could be hurtful
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