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Old 05-04-2008, 06:28 AM   #1
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Important Question

Do you behave as if you really believe in God?
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Old 05-04-2008, 06:46 AM   #2
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No, but why is it an important question?
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Old 05-04-2008, 07:17 AM   #3
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I want to know; specifically from strongly theistic people, of course they will probably lie, but that doesn't defeat the purpose.
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Old 05-04-2008, 07:43 AM   #4
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I used to behave and believe in God, but as soon as I stopped believing I stoppped behaving like it too - I don't see any point in lying about that, if you think it's a lie?
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Old 05-04-2008, 07:46 AM   #5
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Atheists are boring like that, they have nothing to lie about (at least on those matters; as far as anything else goes they are more or less just as human as the next person)

Although I do find it interesting that having abandoned belief you also abandoned some behaviours. The propaganda from some religious institutions would have it that taking the step to unbelief leads down a sinful path.
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Old 05-04-2008, 08:20 AM   #6
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OK, I understand your question now and its purpose.
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Old 05-04-2008, 11:07 AM   #7
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If you weren´t so irritating when someone talks to you about God I would answer your question
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Old 05-04-2008, 11:10 AM   #8
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Says more about you than it does me, good things though.
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Old 05-04-2008, 01:22 PM   #9
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Re: Important Question

Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Do you behave as if you really believe in God?
No.
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Old 05-04-2008, 01:23 PM   #10
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Old 05-04-2008, 04:50 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer at 05-04-2008 03:28 AM
Do you behave as if you really believe in God?
Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer at 05-04-2008 04:17 AM
I want to know; specifically from strongly theistic people, of course they will probably lie, but that doesn't defeat the purpose.
Intolerance and judgment.

Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer at 05-04-2008 04:46 AM
Atheists are boring like that, they have nothing to lie about (at least on those matters; as far as anything else goes they are more or less just as human as the next person)

Although I do find it interesting that having abandoned belief you also abandoned some behaviours. The propaganda from some religious institutions would have it that taking the step to unbelief leads down a sinful path.
I have told you before, and as evidenced by your own postings

You are religious, you have not abandoned belief, you have just exchanged it for another belief system.
You are as dogmatic as any fundamentalist.

Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Says more about you than it does me, good things though.
More, Intolerance and judgment.
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Old 05-04-2008, 06:03 PM   #12
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I never exchanged any belief for unbelief (other than the obvious Santa Claus delusion), I think that attributing my motivations as a reflection of some childish contempt for faith rooted in being forced to go to Church or being let down by faith is simply false. I would like to think that I can or am at least capable of challenging my assumptions, I am self-critical towards them; although I take a materialist view which I feel is the only one that can possibly be verifiable and in principle explainable. That science has not only made claims of being a method of investigation to find out about the nature of reality (so is Scientology in it's way) but that it has actually produced apparently genuine results is significant. Views informed by science (and that includes religious views) are generally better for it. And again science is not a religion in any significant sense, otherwise many believers wouldn't be able to simultaneously view the world through a scientific lens and hold religious belief at the same time; you couldn't really call yourself Muslim and Greek Orthodox in quite the same fashion as you could a Sikh and a Scientist.

The equivalent fundamentalism argument doesn't identify what makes me a mirror of a devout believer, it is just employed for some ad hominem end. If you mean that I am capable of being arrogant, intolerant and strongly attached to abstract principles I would defend the charge - those are characteristics of human beings not fundamentalists in general. I take a fundamentalist to be somebody to whom a core doctrine contains all the answers; I don't think that science is equatable because it doesn't contain any innate answers, it merely outlines a mechanism to try and find them (assuming some of the fundamental things about what exists). What I think may be a type of scientism but that doesn't mean that it has an equivalent in the supernatural, I don't think that belief is a dichotomy there is a spectrum and at one end there is revealed truth literalists (whom I would take as fundamentalists) tending towards mainstream believers (regular people) edging to broader concepts about God (deism) ending with atheism. You wouldn't be talking about a fundamentalist unitarian, I don't see how atheism is terribly different. God just isn't a consideration in any meaningful sense to me and the corollary of that is that I am not using God as a measuring stick for my own positions. I will use scientific facts and theories, and those are grounded, to me understanding an open question such as directionality in evolution through geological time is far more interesting than the nature of the trinity because the question has a real answer, there are empirical claims that can be tested (in that example against the fossil record). If I was married to one position such as non-directionality (maybe because I was afraid that any directionality would imply higher intelligence - that is not the case) but the evidence swung against me I like to think that I could put aside ego and change my position. You simply don't have that with religious fundamentalists, they don't go out of their way to check their beliefs against other people or the real world: they know that their position is true and there is no amount of evidence or rhetoric that could sway them from that position (of course that is a false picture, given the many people who turn away from hardline beliefs through their lives).

You have posted your fundamentalist equivalence argument before, and again I think there are enough differences between a religious fundamentalist and myself to render it moot. And just to clear something up, the positions that you paint as fundamentalist are not inherently bad (as are the religious equivalents in certain circumstances); you could attack somebody for being an enlightenment fundamentalist and they might take it as a positive. Labeling me as a science fundamentalist does seem a bit similar; if it wasn't being used as a pejorative I may not have a problem with it.

You paint my position as inherently hostile and bigoted, I disagree, using intolerant speech provokes a more visceral and I dare say honest response. I don't consider believers to be some sort of different species, we are all people, I respect freedom of religion and my hostility to harmful religious belief has far more to do with consequences in the real world than anything metaphysical (I got angry at having televangelism on early morning TV instead of softcore porn). I would discriminate against certain types of religious people - but by the same token both of us would discriminate against a white supremacist.

For me God is an irrelevance, but I do find it interesting to know why people believe the things they do, it is a useful check on bad thinking, it forces me to think about my assumptions. The intolerance and judgement which you point out is there to serve a purpose, I think it will elucidate a more candid response from a certain type of person. Your totally misunderstanding the fourth quote, the "good things" were complimentary - Caroni obviously has no desire to justify her personal faith to me and thats great, I wouldn't expect to see somebody with that attitude to parade their belief on their sleeve and use it as a justification for any of their positions in real world affairs.
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Old 05-04-2008, 06:34 PM   #13
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I think so....if people ask me if I believe in a god I will say "yes" and if someone asks me "who created this?" I will say "I believe creation is God-willed."

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Old 05-04-2008, 06:53 PM   #14
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Would that be a driving force of the universe rather than an interventionist entity?
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Old 05-04-2008, 06:57 PM   #15
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Hey I already answered the question!

I'm not really sure what you mean, but basically I believe that however earth/life/people came to be, it was God-willed. I won't say God himself actively did it, or that there is no God. I've never felt that science and God/religion are mutually exclusive. I personally don't care whether we came from the Big Bag or God Himself made man with his own hands. I guess I am not interested enough in science OR theology to have a definite answer.
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