I'm sorry, but I don't find Michael Moore, or his fans, remotely credible.

[Wowy23]

He makes whoever he dislikes out to be big meanies abusing the poor innocent person. Just watch any of his 'documentaries' and you'll see it. Either the white man is abusing the poor black man or the poor Arab man.

While I agree that MM has taken stuff out of context and has skewed events to show his take on things, I wouldn't brand him a liar just because he has a tendency to misrepresent the truth. He may represent his documentaries as truth but we all know it's just entertainment with facts thrown in here and there. In Columbine, MM shows a very funny adaption of how America came to be. African slaves were brought here to work on cotton fields; remember cotton was king but it wasn't the only crop that was worked on. Cotton made alot of slave owners rich and slavery was the way to the bank. Was Slavery abuse? Yeah.

In F-9/11, there's the piece about an iraqi woman crying hysterically because the US killed her family in an air attack. I don't think the military meant to kill her family but what it shows is the big US military kicking major butt on these poor Iraqi people. There's another segment where they break into an iraqi home in the middle of the night to get a suspected insurgent. There was no knock on the door and no search warrant. What Moore shows is the abusive power of the military. The movie also shows that the Marines in a certain city recruit in poor black areas. Now does this mean that all Marines recruit in black areas? If they do, it's a shame and abuse. If they don't, then MM is not telling the whole story.

 

[Leeloo]

The Marines are also calling up and sending mailers to every middle class white boy I know, and have for years. The fact is, ALL branches of the military consider every young male, in some cases young person to be a potential recruit. They are very persistent. My cousin told me the recruiter told him 'once he set his sites on a young man he was going to get him or else'.

So that's an idea of how the truth is technically true but misrepresented. Do they target poor blacks? Of course they do. But what they aren't showing you is that they are also targeting all types, but that is left out, so you are left to believe the blacks are targeted more, and that's what Moore wants you to believe, so that's the slant.

 

[DaveC]

Shant.

I still await my apology for your ignorant personal attack not only on me but also millions of others.

 

[Dreadsox]

Shant.

I still await my apology for your ignorant personal attack not only on me but also millions of others.

And I wait for the ignorant personal attacks on Catholics, Republicans, Conservative Christians ect. that go on in here all the time.

please.....

 

[adam's_mistress]

You should see the film "Outfoxed" and see what O'Reilly is really all about. He is most definitely all about pulling stuff out of his arse. In fact, the only thing he hasn't pulled out of his arse yet is his head.

Yes, and O'Reilly is quick to pull a "shut up" out of his butt too - among other despicable things he's said. Belligerent and irresponsible journalism at its best.

 

[verte76]

I would agree with this except for the fact that he has cut, spliced, and put together the clips in ways that do not necessarily tell the whole story. It is misleading. Now, this is not to say the nightly news does not do the same thing. I think that Howard Dean was destroyed not by the scream, but by the way the news portrayed the scream, without the before and after, where you can clearly see he was trying to get his supporters out of the dumps from the loss.

I think it drives the press crazy when a politician gets emotional. In their view this was "unpresidential" behavior, and they made a huge deal over it. Likewise MM took bits and pieces to make particular points, like the bin Laden-Bush connections and all the stuff about the Saudis, etc, etc.

 

[Harper]

U2 may be consider liberal in Alabama, but in Ireland, I think they are probably considered moderate or middle of the road. But to little is known about many of their views, it is a mistake to lable the band, their fans, or question fans of certain political beliefs because their views may or may not agree with the bands views. I'm sure U2 does not mind the millions of Republican's and conservatives who actually buy their music and pay to see them in concert.

I always see those parts of the gig where Bono gets all preachy about stuff (the gun issue during the elevation tour on DVD, for example) as being aimed directly at those Republicans and conservatives in their audience!

 

[Lilac]

I always see those parts of the gig where Bono gets all preachy about stuff (the gun issue during the elevation tour on DVD, for example) as being aimed directly at those Republicans and conservatives in their audience!

If that is true, he's quite a jerk. We pay for concerts, not reeducation camps.

But I don't think so. It's just part of the act.

 

[verte76]

I don't really think Bono is going "after the conservatives and Republicans" with the gun thing. I read where Edge said they put that in the show just to make people think, not to preach. I've said this before, and I'll say it again, people in Ireland have a very different mindset about guns. They associate guns with the IRA and terrorist attacks, not with any kind of "freedom" the way many Americans do. U2 are no exception. They mainly wanted to deal with the issue of responsibility for gun owners. They didn't exactly mean to say "this is a sin" or whatever.

 

[Angela Harlem]

Verte, I dont mean to imply you are saying this here with your post, but I want to say this. Do guns, which are a weapon of death and violence, truly represent freedom to America?



This of course cannot be answered accurately, or without stereotyping Americans. Neither of which I want to do, but I wonder if it does to some.

 

[verte76]

Verte, I dont mean to imply you are saying this here with your post, but I want to say this. Do guns, which are a weapon of death and violence, truly represent freedom to America?



This of course cannot be answered accurately, or without stereotyping Americans. Neither of which I want to do, but I wonder if it does to some.

In the U.S. many people take the Second Amendment to our Constitution quite seriously. That's the "right to bear arms" Amendment, and some people claim this cost Al Gore the 2000 election. I don't know that I agree with this, Gore did some really stupid things like pulling his campaign out of Ohio ten days before the election, just about giving it to Bush. Yeah, right, you just pitch all of those electoral votes! I personally don't own a gun and never will. The things scare the out of me. But many Americans really do take this seriously.

 

[Lilac]

Damn, I had a perfect response all written out and accidently hit the escape button!

Let me try again. Yes, the right to own a gun is something millions of Americans hold dear and consider part of our freedom. While people in Ireland, Australia, or other places cannot understand this and see us as gun toting fools ready to blow each other away, the issue is so much deeper than this.

It comes from our nature, our culture, a country born of the wildnerness, pioneers, militias, the wild west, hunting, and self defense. While it is a tragedy many use this right in the wrong way, other law abiding citizens should not have to pay the price. Millions here do consider it a right, whether or not they want to excercise that right personally (which I do not) Taking away that right is seen as an overstepping of authority against citizens by the government. I find it also very ironic that some of the most ardent gun control supporters are the most liberal, who are always ranting of 'rights' and 'choice' and 'keeping the government out of private lives' Well, I suppose it's only a 'right' and a 'choice' if it's something they believe in, and the government has a right to intrude in the lives of those they disagree with

I also believe, given our history and culture, any attempt to take guns from the public would be met with much opposition. It is also true that most violent non domestic crimes were not committed with legal, registered guns anyway, and there will always be the illegal and black market guns in the wrong hands, regardless.

 

[zoney!]

If you want humor then go back to IO: we are not amused

I will follow you out the door...here's hoping you (don't) drown in the drool in PLEBA! ( )

 

[zoney!]

but who are you calling tiny?

 

[Salome]

It comes from our nature, our culture, a country born of the wildnerness, pioneers, militias, the wild west, hunting, and self defense. While it is a tragedy many use this right in the wrong way, other law abiding citizens should not have to pay the price.

to play devil's advocate for a bit ...

this kind of reasoning sort of reminds me of how other cultures defend certain issues (female circumcission for example) that make no sense to us

when you look at the figures the amount of gun related death in the US is so high that even if you can explain 50% pointing at other reasons the number is still higher than in other comparable countries

we wouldn't have a lot of problem telling african countries that there obviously is some kind of flaw in their culture if it doesn't protect its own citizens from a higher chance of getting killed

 

[Popmartijn]

Well, my effort to kill this thread before it really went downhill was spectacularly unsuccessful.

Nobody ever listened to Dan Quale either.

 

[ThatGuy]

Not true. I never misspelled "potato" ever again.

 

[Popmartijn]

Not true. I never misspelled "potato" ever again.

That is the perfect thought to finally get off my lazy butt and go to sleep.

Thanks!

 

[beli]

Nobody ever listened to Dan Quale either.

 

[steve1451]

Bush Moore..Coulter, Hannity

They are all the same. They all put a spin on everything to get their word out. However if you are referring to Moore and 9/11 thats all fact, everything he has presented there is documented. True the scene with the mother walking around in DC might have been staged, but everything else is documented. Hannity, Coulter, Limbaugh, Moore, Franken, Bush they are no better than the other. Just take the time to decipher your pwn opinion and make a good judgement not based on what the media wants you to believe, but whats in your heart.

 

[Leeloo]

Re: Bush Moore..Coulter, Hannity

Just take the time to decipher your own opinion and make a good judgement not based on what the media wants you to believe, but whats in your heart.

 

[thrillme]

hold me closer, tiny dancer.

FYM REALLY lacks a sense of humor!

Lighten up people...if you can't see the humor in Michael Moore and Bono "pratically being twins..." then you you need to push your chair away from the computer and go outside for a bit. Don't take YOURSELF so seriously.

The one thing that I have always hated about FYM is the lack of people with a sense of humor.

Drama is easy, comedy is hard.

How was that humorous though?

It doesn't even make sense, not to mention not being funny. I mean, saying Bono and Robin Williams are practically twins, is funny (though Bono much less hairy, and cuter).

I admit, I know very little about Moore, in fact, I didn't know who he was until "Bowling for Columbine" came out, (did anyone here?)

First off, Bono is Irish, that automatically means an entirely different perspective than Moore. Remember, in Ireland and Northern Ireland, the term republican, means more than just being a member of a political party.

Another, Bono says he's Christian. I don't know if Moore is, but that would make a difference. People are-- "one, but not the same." If you don't think a Christian and an atheist would have lots to disagree about, I can link you to some forums that would prove otherwise. Note: *(it's not that I'm a singling out other religions, but an atheist, in practice, does not follow any religion, nor believe in any gods. Comparing an atheist to a Christian is comparing apples to oranges, comparing a Hindu to Christain is comparing navel oranges to mandarin oranges. ) *

Bono's working with all sides, to try and help African countries out, he's trying to see the good in people, not focus on the bad like Moore.

$435 million in debt was erased due to Jubilee 2000/Drop the Debt with Bono acting as spokesperson for them.

I dunno, maybe Moore's film will make a few million at the box office, but I'm guessing it won't do anything to help impoverished nations due to crushing debts.

Again, Bono being Irish, European, non-American, makes him much different idealogically from Moore.

I dunno, I just imagine Bono's more intelligent/educated than Moore. I'm an American, but I know what a lot of other countries think of our education system. I've seen some of questions on the high school "exit" exams in Ireland. They're all fill in, short answer, essay questions. I think some of questions on them, make the S.A.T's look like piece of cake.

Robin Williams can do a convincing Irish accent, btw.

 

[DaveC]

And I wait for the ignorant personal attacks on Catholics, Republicans, Conservative Christians ect. that go on in here all the time.

please.....

If you can show me one post I have ever made with any of those, then I will personally apologise to you.

 

[Kieran McConville]

Look guys, nobody ever expects the Spanish Inquisition!

 

[Clark W. Griswold Jr]

Re: Bush Moore..Coulter, Hannity

However if you are referring to Moore and 9/11 thats all fact, everything he has presented there is documented.

http://www.davekopel.com/terror/fiftysix-deceits-in-fahrenheit-911.htm

My apologies if this has been posted before, but the writer(a Nader supporter just like Moore) makes frequent updates to this page.

 

[Clark W. Griswold Jr]

Re: Bush Moore..Coulter, Hannity

However if you are referring to Moore and 9/11 thats all fact, everything he has presented there is documented.

http://www.davekopel.com/terror/fiftysix-deceits-in-fahrenheit-911.htm

My apologies if this has been posted before, but the writer(a Nader supporter just like Moore) makes frequent updates to this page anyway.

 

[ThatGuy]

Kopel may be a Nader supporter, but he's also the research director at the Independence Institute, which has right-wing funding. So don't take his support of Nader as an indication that Kopel is an unbiased source. Plus, given his views expressed here, he may hold a grudge against Moore over Bowling for Columbine.

Not that I thinki F9/11 in completely factual. I admit that it did stretch the truth in spots. But here's Moore's notes and sources for the film:
http://www.michaelmoore.com/warroom/f911notes/index.php?id=16

And an admittedly biased refutation of Kopel's piece:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/7/18/173312/462

 

[anitram]

I admit, I know very little about Moore, in fact, I didn't know who he was until "Bowling for Columbine" came out, (did anyone here?)

\

I knew about him back in the early 90s. I took a film class where we had to watch Roger and Me, and his TV Nation series. He also had The Awful Truth out, so yes, I would say that while he was not a household name in the world before BFC, he was not an unknown either. He also filmed Canadian Bacon with John Candy and that got him some exposure as well.

 

[beli]

I used to watch the Awful Truth also. My favourite episode was where he recruited some smokers to sing christmas carols through their tracheotomies outside Phillip Morris office

 

[A_Wanderer]

Ah yes The Awful Truth, thinking about the sniper school for kids. Or when he was chasing after the Taliban for banning TV. And his speaking out against Clinton over millitary intervention in the Balkans and the UN Sanctions on Iraq.

As much as I disagree with his opinions and his methods I do respect the fact he has maintained a solid line of argument - he is not some peace creep who opposes War in Iraq but thinks that Kosovo was a good thing.