Im sick and tired of The American Guilt Complex

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diamond

ONE love, blood, life
Joined
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Messages
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I dont get it.
It seems that there is a subtle animosity towards The United States by other countries and by some of her citizens.
And because of this many Americans start thinking of only negative aspects of our nation's history.:eyebrow:



Everything from -
-slavery
-capitalism
-discrimination
-intolerance ect ect ect.

Thereby causing us to feel shitty to be American.

:|
I do not subscribe to this philosophy.:down:
It is a ploy for the weak-willed and feeble minded..:huh:

The America I believe in is one that-

-DOES NOT live in the past consumed w/guilt over her past mistakes.

-looks forward to the future so that ppl of all color, creed and religion can live together harmoniously and celebrate our differences, and not be threatened by those differences:up:

-grows and thrives and is a beacon to the other countries who's citizens want to join us in this idea of America.

Thats the America I know:up:
Thats the America I love.

Out-
Diamond

:adam:
 
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diamond said:
:|
I do not subscribe to this philosophy.:down:
It is a ploy for the weak-willed and feeble minded..:huh:

The America I believe in is one that-

-DOES NOT live in the past consumed w/guilt over her past mistakes.

-looks forward to the future so that ppl of all color, creed and religion can live together harmoniously and celebrate our differences, and not be threatened by those differences:up:

-grows and thrives and is a beacon to the other countries who's citizens want to join us in this idea of America.

Thats the America I love.

Out-
Diamond
:dance:
:cool:


Preach it, brutha diamond! :yes:

I'm proud to be an American
where at least I know I'm free,
And I won't forget the men who died
who gave that right to me,
And I gladly stand up next to you
and defend her still today,
'Cause there ain't no doubt I love this land
God Bless the U.S.A.
 
I don't think MANY Americans are like this. I think the few that are are very VOCAL, they organize marches, they know how to get media attention and they tend to do their recruitment at universities.

There are three popular movements of anti-Americanism in the world at the moment, IMO:
(1) the domestic movement
(2) the pan-Asian movement
(3) the European movement
 
I don't have an American guilt complex, but I am aware that as a country we have done some pretty unsavory things. My philoshopy is that if you forget history you are doomed to repeat it.

I feel bad about the way our forefathers treated Native Americans, African Americans and other groups over the years. However, there are a lot of things that I am proud of about this country. The main one being that I can sit here and express my opinion.

While America isn't perfect, it is certainly better than some of the alternatives out there.
 
I think that you always try to knock down whomever is on top of the heap, and lets face it. We are pretty much that country. As for all the bad and evil things we have done I don't think there are many countries closets that you can look in and not find some not so great things that I am sure they are not proud of.
 
You know what? America has done some disgusting things to other countries over the years (think El Salvador, Nicaragua, Chile, Vietnam...) and it should be ashamed of itself. Equally Britain, France, Holland and any other imperialist power should be ashamed of themselves for their disgraceful treatment of their former colonies. It's not anti-American to condemn those actions anymore than it's anti-British, anti-French, anti-Dutch to condemn the behaviour of those countries.

And on the subject of anti-Americanism or whatever it's called today. There is an absolute difference between condemning the actions of a government and condemning the people of that country. To label someone anti-American implies they have something against the American people, instead of simply recognising their entirely legitimate concerns with the actions of the United States government.

You can't just draw a line under the past and say you've moved on. A murderer can't claim to feel regret for his/her crimes and so demand to be released from prison. So why should a country be able to absolve itself of responsibility for past crimes? Particularly when it continues to commit similar crimes on a daily basis.

And, one final question - boywonder, what do you mean by the 'European movement'?
 
The beauty of this country is that you don't have to be satisfied with the status quo. We have the freedom to speak out against the things we don't believe in. This includes the actions of our own country. Yet when people speak out against certain things they aren't happy with in this country they get labeled anti-American. The citizens of America are taking a step back as soon as you start labeling your neighbors anti-American for practicing their freedom of speech. The weak and feeble minded are those who live, believe, and don't mind everything this country spoon feeds them.

-looks forward to the future so that ppl of all color, creed and religion can live together harmoniously and celebrate our differences, and not be threatened by those differences

Do you think this will ever happen if people don't point out and learn from the mistakes of this nation, and just sit back and accept everything this nation does? You can't honestly believe every action your beloved Bush is heading this nation towards this...
 
daisybean said:
I don't have an American guilt complex, but I am aware that as a country we have done some pretty unsavory things. My philoshopy is that if you forget history you are doomed to repeat it.
:yes: that also goes for every country, really. i don't think it's just americans that need to remember the negative as well as the positive, but that goes for any country as well.
 
Yes, I would like to know what you mean by that, boywonder. What do u mean by the 'European Movement', and, more importantly, how on Earth is is anti-american?

Bizarre.

Ant.
 
By anti-Americanism, I don't separate the government and the people. I'm refering to the public conception of America in countries like France and Germany. Americans have long been aware that the country is often viewed as imperialistic, too individualistic, materialistic and ignorant. This negative image of the United States is still very much alive. Since the Reagan presidency, cartoons in the European press have represented America as a wild cowboy who fires his gun without concern for anyone or anything. It's the image of Americans as fat, glutonous fools who seek nothing but pleasure. From our political disagreements, stereotypes have formed within Europe that Americans are uninformed about the issues. We are slaves of a moronic administration and we're too powerless or clueless to do anything about it. This is also the impression I get when talking to my friends from France. It's a smug indignation that their government is superior to us in its form of politics, its economic structure and the way it treats its people.
We may all pretend like the actions of our government are separate from us and that every European is able to distinguish the two, but it's untrue. We can't expect there to be no negative stereotypes built up after 50 years of cold war policy.
Some of you may claim that this is all in response to Bush, but this behavior didn't start 2 years ago. Some of it may have to do with our superior political influence and military strength in the world, I don't know. I do know, however, that we get a lot more criticism about our past from our "allies" than we dish out to others. I don't exactly think that Europe's hands are clean either. Why don't Europeans let the people within our country make us feel guilty for our past (once in a while) and leave it at that? Do we need a reminder? I don't need to be asked why capitalism is so out of control here. I don't need to be asked why the minimum wage isn't higher or why we don't have a stronger labor movement or why we don't have universal health care.

I don't want to suggest that every European is like this. It's just a prevailing trend that has been growing. WE are in a representative democracy, so we can't expect ourselves as a whole to be separated from the government. If an issue is important to the public, it should be on the political landscape or we should demand for it to be there. For this reason, our policy reflects on US.

Several key issues that Europeans bring up with our policy are:
gun control, death penalty, energy consumption (and the signing of the kyoto treaty), nuclear weapons policy, the ICC, etc

Here's an article on the issue from the Washington Post by a writer for the UK Guardian:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/w...node=&contentId=A26468-2001Jan6&notFound=true
 
"I don't need to be asked why capitalism is so out of control here. I don't need to be asked why the minimum wage isn't higher or why we don't have a stronger labor movement or why we don't have universal health care."

I do understand your emotion, but you also don?t have to feel attacked personally. Keep in mind that our countries (most european and the u.s.) are hardly ever forced into their decisions by other countries.

I don?t understand though - if most Americans, I hope, have understood that its not AntiAmerica, but AntiOutofcontrol monetarism/ neoliberalism - why they don?t take a more active role in the political process.

On the other hand, I can understand them, because not everyone is interested in politics. Also in Europe, many are not interested. Sometimes they get interested when they lose their jobs.

However, there is absolutely no reason to judge America as a whole, or Americans. Europeans should better take a look in the mirror. Sure America was and still is very dominant, but its us who started with capitalism, colonisation, and that stuff.
 
I think I understand what "BOY" is talking about. Many people here talk about alleged crimes or actions they consider to be crimes of the US government. But whether or not many of these actions are actually crimes is open to dispute and opinion. Many attempt to paint certain things or classify certain things as crimes of the US government when in fact they are not and are legitimate actions. This attempt to paint the US government and its actions as criminal without facts but with what is mainly opinion and speculation, instead of remaining more objective, can easily be "seen" as being anti-American.

If were going to talk about crimes or state crimes, where is all the post and statements about the actions of governments that commit crimes on a daily basis throughout the world. If people here are so concerned about what they percieve as injustice, why don't we have more post slamming the Iraqi, or Iranian government, or the North Korean government. I have yet to see a single person(correct me if I'm wrong) who regularly criticizes the USA, criticize North Korea with the same frequency. I'm not attempting to criticize, its just a general observation.

I don't think anyone here is really anti-American. But it would be nice to see some more balance when digging up or accusing certain countries of crimes. I could be guilty of this myself in regards to countries that rarely make the news but have terrible human rights abuses, yet I have not mentioned them.
 
whenhiphopdrovethebigcars said:
Europeans should better take a look in the mirror.

I know a lot of Europeans who are very critical when it comes to European politics as well as American politics. You might not notice it by visiting this forum because most of the active members are probably from the US and predominantly post about (gasp) American politics. Just check out Free Your Mind and see how many political threads posted by American members are about US politics. That's why I almost pee my panties laughing when I find yet another thread posted by an American asking these "Ooooh why do they hate us..?" type of questions.

I don't think I've ever seen threads dealing with European issue's get more than 15 (and yes, this is a guess) replies.
 
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Well, if one were to look at it from such a point of view, I would have to agree. However, the way you phrased it the first time it seemed that the 'European Movement', which is the integration of European countries under the EU, was an anti-american movement, that is neither accurate not true. Partial public opinion with criticisms exaggerated by sensationalist reporting is hardly anti-americanism.

Do some parties in som European countries disagree strongly with the way America handles some things? Of course, and why shouldn't they, they are entitled to an opinion. Is Europe anti-American? No. It isn't, purely because it isn't wise to be so.

I've said it again and again, the only real anti-Americanism I have seen so far is 9/11. Anti-Americanism is a term that has been used too liberally, without reallly acknowledging the implications.

I will accept that if you were to ask, for instance, a Frenchman about the issues raised in that article you supplied, there is a substantial chance that he would comment on how the American election was a joke, ownership of weapons is a ludicrous concept, the death penalty is outdated and America may seem to have this gung-ho attitude to things - this is the situation at its worst; is THAT Anti-American? Surely not.

No more Anti-American than Americans' critical jokes concerning the French is Anti-French.

Ant.
 
I know a lot of Europeans who are very critical when it comes to European politics as well as American politics. You might not notice it by visiting this forum because most of the active members are probably American and predominantly post about (gasp) American politics. Just check out Free Your Mind and see how many political threads posted by American members are about American politics. That's why I almost pee my panties laughing when I find yet another thread posted by an American asking these "Ooooh why do they hate us..?" type of questions.

I don't think I've ever seen threads dealing with European issue's get more than 15 (and yes, this is a guess) replies.
This is a very accurate observation of how things actually are around here. There are constant observations of anti-American comments and criticisims concerning American politics, well, that is because European matters rarely garner any attention. I exaggerate not. Quite often you have Europeans commenting on American matters, but rarely the reverse. Hence, the observation of 15 replies to a European thread.

Though this may sound like a complaint, it is not. Its an observation of how things are, and an invitation for those who are always asking 'why is it always America?' to actually find an answer. If everything is centred on a particular subject, you are bound to have just as many criticisms as there are praises.

Ant.
 
Anthony said:
This is a very accurate observation of how things actually are around here. There are constant observations of anti-American comments and criticisims concerning American politics, well, that is because European matters rarely garner any attention. I exaggerate not. Quite often you have Europeans commenting on American matters, but rarely the reverse. Hence, the observation of 15 replies to a European thread.

Is this a matter of anti-American bias towards American politics or American ignorance towards European politics?

Unfortunately, a sizable percentage of American students cannot find Belgium on a map, or know what the acronym NATO stands for.



Please note that none of these students are in Dreadsox's class. Those kids are all well taught! :yes:
 
I've heard a sizable percentage of Belgian kids can't find Belgium on the map, but that's a different story all together... :tongue:
 
Well, yes nbcrusader, perhaps its both, but perhaps its neither. Everyone, to a certain extent, is ignorant over a many number of things, however, it doesn't stop them from having opinions. Opinions are like prejeduices, everybody has them, and yet, the turn out of replies concerning European issues gives the clear indication that people just don't have an opinion, and I do believe that it is more out of a lack of interest than ignorance.

There is plenty of ignorance to go around, and yet some threads get the attention they don't deserve, over such a trivial subject. I believe that Americans may be as ignorant about domestic matters in European countries as Europeans are ignorant over a great number of things in America, but it still does not account for the imbalance. Are Europeans anti-American, or are Americans anti-European?

My point is that this logic of anti-anyoneunderthesun, is completely irrational to apply in a place such as this one. Such a term would fit better in the Al-Jazeera message board. If it had one.

Ant.
 
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I think what is silliest is the extremist attitude such subjects bring. You either "love" America or you "hate" America, with the former generally meaning that you are a rabid conservative or a rabid liberal...isn't that what you really want to say? Fortunately for America, most people are centrists. The "American guilt complex" is in your head. I mean, you already have the House, Senate, and White House...how much stroking does conservatism need? :|

Melon
 
melon said:
I think what is silliest is the extremist attitude such subjects bring. You either "love" America or you "hate" America, with the former generally meaning that you are a rabid conservative or a rabid liberal...isn't that what you really want to say? Fortunately for America, most people are centrists. The "American guilt complex" is in your head. I mean, you already have the House, Senate, and White House...how much stroking does conservatism need? :|

Melon

A concept that is has been commented upon by several prominent media sources is a joke? Who are you kidding? There are plenty of people who would be ashamed to identify as an American if they went to Europe. Go to any socialist rally and wave an American flag and check out the response. I have several friends who are so anti- American policy that they have openly stated that they are ashamed to identify as an American.

You all have become overly defensive. There are several Europeans on here who could easily post more about European topics, but it's YOUR choice not to. You've turned it around and made it seem like it's the fault of everyone that you don't get enough attention to your issues. The multitude of threads bashing Bush and our current administration come from both sides of the Atlantic. This is the heart of bias.

Anthony, if you asked a Frenchmen questions about our political\social\economic system and he criticizes several aspects of it, then he is anti-American, because these aspects of our system are dictated by our collective choices in politicians, so they are a reflection of us (maybe not all of us).
The jokes made in the U.S. about France are silly and never taken seriously. There's a big difference between criticism of personal hygeine and criticism of rampant capitalism. One is much more serious than the other.

Everyone has ignored STING2's comments about the threads in this forum that ignore human rights abuses in countries more deserving of criticism. And you all wonder why we think you're biased? In a world of genocide, slavery and mass starvation, why is most of the attention focused on Bush!? Because he makes for an easy target? He won't sign Kyoto, he won't make cars more fuel efficient, he's threatening a war with a psychopathic, murderous dictator. Meanwhile, millions starve, people get tortured and imprisoned, etc etc.

U2 is an international band. This is an international forum. Europeans should start posting about European issues even if you don't win the popularity contest and all of the ridiculous denials of bias from the left should be accompanied with criticism of OTHER countries if you actually care to be taken seriously.
 
boywonder said:


Anthony, if you asked a Frenchmen questions about our political\social\economic system and he criticizes several aspects of it, then he is anti-American, because these aspects of our system are dictated by our collective choices in politicians, so they are a reflection of us (maybe not all of us).

How is someone criticizing some of our policies automatically anti-American? I criticize quite a few American policies, but I'm American and have no problem admitting it. To me, real anti-Americanism is what was manifest on 9/11 in Mohammed Atta and his amateur pilot buddies. Some criticism of certain policies is hardly anti-American.

I also criticize some Catholic policies, but I was raised Catholic and still attend Mass at my school. Does that make me anti-Catholic?
 
DrTeeth said:
I've heard a sizable percentage of Belgian kids can't find Belgium on the map, but that's a different story all together... :tongue:

but do they where waffles come from?:wink:
 
boywonder said:





U2 is an international band. This is an international forum. Europeans should start posting about European issues even if you don't win the popularity contest and all of the ridiculous denials of bias from the left should be accompanied with criticism of OTHER countries if you actually care to be taken seriously.

I can't think of any European country that is imposing their values on Americans.

However, I can think of American actions that are affecting many other countries.
Kyoto
Stem cell research (US is trying to get UN cloning research to conform to Whitehouse policy)
Family planning, birth control
Helms-Hartley Act (punish countries that trade with Cuba)
International Criminal Court, we want exemption

This administration wants it there way only. These actions create what you call anti-Americanism.

Europeans have a right to comment, because it affects their lives.
 
deep said:


I can't think of any European country that is imposing their values on Americans.

However, I can think of American actions that are affecting many other countries.
Kyoto
Stem cell research (US is trying to get UN cloning research to conform to Whitehouse policy)
Family planning, birth control
Helms-Hartley Act (punish countries that trade with Cuba)
International Criminal Court, we want exemption

This administration wants it there way only. These actions create what you call anti-Americanism.

Europeans have a right to comment, because it affects their lives.

The administration wants it there way? What administration doesn't? Very silly comment.
Europeans comment on a lot of things that don't affect them. How does our healthcare, legalization of guns and death penalty affect them? Obviously you know about these issues. How convenient that you left them out. I've never met an American that complains about France's rampant corruption or France and Germany's dealings with the Iraqi regime or the hundreds of other criticisms one could dish out about Europe. I think Europe is most DEFINITELY imposing thier values on us. What do you think all this open criticism is for? Fun? They want us to change. Why would they have protests in Spain against the U.S. use of the death penalty? For kicks?

Complaining about certain policies is fine. Nowhere in my message did I suggest that dissent is unAmerican. I'm suggesting that many Europeans are biased against us because they view us as an arrogant, ignorant and gluttonous society. It's not a matter of just our policies, though criticism of those policies (especially those that don't concern them) is just an outward expression of the underlying and growing disgust for our lifestyle.

I've met plenty of Americans who are quick to place blame on our government without considering the facts. This propensity to "blame America first" is what I find laughable. That's what I consider anti-American. They WANT to blame America first. After 9/11, all I hear from these people are complaints about how the Taliban prisoners are being treated, how we're a war-hungry society, we brought it on ourselves, etc etc FOREVER. There are perfectly fair explanations for our actions, but they'd prefer to believe otherwise. Why?

Issues that you've all been ignoring:
1. Why don't I see any anti-European policy posts on FYM?
2. Why is America criticized for actions that pale in comparison to the injustices in other countries?

If you're going to ask why I think there is an unjust bias among many Europeans and some Americans, you'll find the answer in the disproportionate criticism on this board.
 
All members of this forum have the right to respond to any thread they choose.

There are rules, guidelines of this community. As long as they abide by them, what is the problem.




If one disagrees, then state so and give good counter points.

Why come to an open forum and then whine about others having the right to post.
 
deep said:
All members of this forum have the right to respond to any thread they choose.

There are rules, guidelines of this community. As long as they abide by them, what is the problem.




If one disagrees, then state so and give good counter points.

Why come to an open forum and then whine about others having the right to post.

Man, I am so sick and tired about liberals whining about their "rights". This has nothing to do with your right to post here (I'm not sure anyone has a right to post on an online privately-owned forum anyways). This has to do with bias. The type of posts I mention (or the lack thereof) indicate BIAS. Inherent BIAS. Anyone who considers themselves a centrist or a conservative would be shocked at the constant and often unwarranted cynicism spread by many members of this forum. For instance, DEEP:

Here's your recent posting record:

Deep on the issue of women's rights article in Iraq:

"I am not surprised this got little exposure in the US.
This does not serve the "official US line" on Iraq.
This is one of the reasons that US Administrations phony linkage to the Taliban was not believed by anyone, but lackeys."

"W and Company will have you paying more taxes than any lefties left standing."

"Many Americans do not like the UN. Just because the US can not dictate the exact terms in every situation. They lose their minds like little children throwing tantrums."

"The administration?s plan for reviving the economy is spending their way out of this recession. The concept of fiscal conservative is a myth to this administration. Hold on to your wallet. And get ready to downsize your life style."

"Florida balloting will be mishandled again. Jeb will get reelected. lucky for him florida does not have a three strikes law. he should be locked up for allowing Americans to be disenfranchised."

"The whole system is pathetic. On NPR today I heard that dems got a voice mail from Clinton. I think Greens would have gotten one from Nader if they had BIG money to pay for it. The Republicans ripped Clinton for fund raising. W. has far surpassed anything Clinton did. They all hypocrites."

Seriously, could you be a more cynical and conservative-hating poster?

Just when someone might argue that he's just being a "good" American by trying to give valid criticism, he criticizes Bush EVEN when he does something right by attacking the Christian right on their stance against Islam.

Here's what he had to say (BTW, I predicted this would happen at the beginning of the thread):

"I would have more respect for W. is he had said this when it might have cost him. Why did he not make these remarks when Falwell made his ignorant remarks, why did he not speak up before the election.

The Christian Coalition is a powerful voting block. He was silent because he could not risk them being offended and staying home on Election Day. This is typical of politicians. When Bush campaigned he said he would not put his finger to the wind. That is a big lie, they are polling like crazy.
Most politicians do. He is just going back on his word."

It's just CONSTANT CYNICISM even when it's undeserved. Many liberals argue that criticism of policy is what being an American is all about. The true patriots (i.e. MLK, Chavez) pick and choose their battles. They don't attack every issue presented from one side of the political spectrum (the conservative side, in this case).

Sorry to make it personal, Deep. I just need to demonstrate why most conservatives on here will come off with that impression of some of you. Not all conservative politicians are crooks, liars and cheats! Let me be the first to say that in FYM.
 
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