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Old 03-17-2003, 06:02 PM   #16
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Originally posted by deep
The Bush Administration has framed this argument in way to get the answer that it wanted.

The better way to go would have been to built an irrefutable case against Saddam concerning crimes against humanity. It may have taken months, but with honest diplomacy, a lack of arrogance, and right on our side I believe a true coalition could have been built to remove Saddam and his regime. They could have been brought to justice in a proceeding similar to Milosivic hearings. France would not have been able to derail a sustained, rational, multi lateral call for justice without serious international repercussions.

The way this has played out is very disappointing. I believe the administrations main concern is a timetable to effect the US economy and election cycle. The majority of the world populations believe this, too. Only the people of the US and Israel support this without UN approval. To believe the rest of the world is for Saddam or just stupid or hate us because we are free is an argument that no reasonable person should believe. Losing lives for domestic political reasons is immoral.

It did not have to be like this. Colin Powell was capable of building a coalition to bring Saddam to justice. It may have taken more time and involved considering other countries’ opinions. Bush listened to the wrong advisors.
precisely.

but to go further, if saddam did have womd, it wouldnt change my mind on whether or not to go to war.
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Old 03-17-2003, 06:08 PM   #17
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As always olive, someone here wrote something about how I'm also feel today. Last night ( here we go , me and my precious TV, but it was powerful stuff) An Iraqi woman, who is a refugee in Australia told her story and it was harrowing. Her husband worked in the Iraq Foreign Affairs Department. A few years ago, he was taken away , brought back and dumped at their house several days later, looking very ill. He went into a coma and died 3 weeks later and his last words to her were , "take the children and leave Iraq". She was beaten and put under house arrest , but with the aid of a friend, she managed to cross the border. She said 20 million people in Iraq would be happy to see Saddam dead.
Two wrongs indeed, which one is wronger? I sure don't know.
I think there are so many imbalances and injustices in this world that need addressing. I wish all the intellegence and technology and capabilities could be used more constructively.
God and Allah must be very disappointed right about now.
Damn. This illustrates how complex this problem is, and how there aren't going to be any easy solutions. Indeed, is there really a solution at all? Does one exist? I have my doubts.
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Old 03-17-2003, 06:20 PM   #18
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well it doesn't illustrate much except...that lady was scared and sad and I felt helpless and scared and sad too.
wrong-wronger-wrongest.
I feel sickened.
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Old 03-17-2003, 06:42 PM   #19
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Originally posted by deep:
"France would not have been able to derail a sustained, rational, multi lateral call for justice without serious international repercussions."

I definitely agree with your take on much of the situation and I would have agreed with your above statement about France a couple of weeks ago (maybe). But it has become glaringly obvious with new evidence that keeps popping up that puts France in bed with Iraq, as Iraq is lining their pockets and there's a lot more money to come to France (and Russia and China) if Saddam stays in power and sanctions are lifted. It seems as though they would do anything even risk international ridicule to stop anything happening to Saddam.
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Old 03-17-2003, 06:57 PM   #20
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Re: I'm shifting positions

Quote:
Originally posted by oliveu2cm
I have a few unresolved questions that make me support the President & the war "effort."

If Saddam really wanted to avoid a war, he would simply erase all doubt of having WMD from the minds of the investigators. I'm starting to feel like he's goading us into a war, esp. with his declaration he'd fight wherever there was "air, land or water." HE is the one person on earth who could stop this war from happening.
WORD IN EDGEWAYS
No, it is the US that can stop this war from happening.
I agree with deep & Klaus that it would be possible to disarm Iraq peacefully. We all must thank the US for the unprecedented military pressure on Hussein. Only if there is "credible threat of war" (like Jack Straw refers to it) Saddam will continue to disarm. And he started cooperating, he destroyed dozens of his As-Samud 2 missiles. "It's not toothpicks, it's lethal weapons", Blix said in UN. It would have never been possible without the US military fist hanging over SH. It would be perfect if US continued balancing on the brink of war, imitating war, threatening war...but never starting it. In 2 or 3 months inspectors would complete their job then. Chem and bio weapons CAN be found. But it's too late. After Bush's ultimatum it is clear US wants to remove Saddam. That's the first goal, not disarmament. Hussein deserves that of course but what a clumsy, awkward, BLOODY way of doing that. U don't have CIA or what? After all u spend 1bln$ DAILY only to keep your military machine there. U will get paid. U will get oil. That's short-term result. But what will be the long-term?
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Old 03-17-2003, 07:05 PM   #21
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Re: Re: I'm shifting positions

Quote:
Originally posted by ALEXRUS

Only if there is "credible threat of war" (like Jack Straw refers to it) Saddam will continue to disarm. And he started cooperating, he destroyed dozens of his As-Samud 2 missiles.
Haven't we been giving him this option for years? (Not being cheeky, I really don't know.)

This "thing" (for lack of better word) has shown me how people can manipulate fear into a HUGE motivating factor- supports of presidents/prime ministers seem to be all hindering on fear, the "what if we don't".. but then again, look at the first attack on the world trade center; what if we had acted against al queda then?





Another question I thought of: what is it going to take for a U.S. victory?? I mean, when, after the bombings & the war, does the U.S. say "okay we win"? Do we have to just take out Saddam for that to happen? Do you think the U.S. has the means to win this war? Do you think Saddam will retaliate with attacks on U.S. soil?

Maybe I should have started a new thread for all those questions but there are so many discussions anyway. Thanks for everyone's opinions/thoughts.
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Old 03-17-2003, 07:19 PM   #22
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Re: Re: Re: I'm shifting positions

Quote:
Originally posted by oliveu2cm




Another question I thought of: what is it going to take for a U.S. victory?? I mean, when, after the bombings & the war, does the U.S. say "okay we win"? Do we have to just take out Saddam for that to happen? Do you think the U.S. has the means to win this war? Do you think Saddam will retaliate with attacks on U.S. soil?
U will win the war. It will take lives of your servicemen... How many? God knows. I am only sure there will be no relatives of Mr.Rumsfeld or Mr.Cheney among them. Saddam will not retaliate (others will), he's got no means for that, too debilitated after the Gulf War.
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Old 03-17-2003, 07:19 PM   #23
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Sometimes I think we live in the “United States of Amnesia”


All these attempts to link Iraq to 911.

Some of you are repeating false information.
Our own CIA has said there is no credible link.


And….

If linkage to 911 is relevant and reason for regime change?

Were not 15 of the 19 hi-jackers Saudi. 9-11 was financed by Saudi funds.


This logic suggests that after the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor we should have attacked China.
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Old 03-17-2003, 07:32 PM   #24
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deep i'm confused as to who, in this thread, you think is linking al qaeda to iraq?
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Old 03-17-2003, 07:39 PM   #25
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Are we suggesting that Saddam's hands are clean with respect to terrorism?
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Old 03-17-2003, 07:39 PM   #26
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I just reread the entire thread too...

Who is arguing there is an Al-Qaeda link?
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Old 03-17-2003, 07:54 PM   #27
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sorry guys,

i read too fast

i thought olive suggested a link here



"what if we don't".. but then again, look at the first attack on the world trade center; what if we had acted against al queda then?




I was born in the USA*

*Amnnesia
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Old 03-17-2003, 07:56 PM   #28
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
Are we suggesting that Saddam's hands are clean with respect to terrorism?
Not a single intelligence service has evidence that there is a link between Saddam and Al-Qaeda. Never heard of that.
Everybody knows (intelligence, diplomats, media) that Saddam has been sponsoring Palestinian terrorists or at least paid money to the families of Palestinian kamikazes. That's it.
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Old 03-17-2003, 07:58 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Are we suggesting that Saddam's hands are clean with respect to terrorism?
are you referring to monies paid to palastinian families?

i understand how isralies consider this aiding terrorism.

but, this does not constitude an attack on america.
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Old 03-18-2003, 01:27 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by ALEXRUS
Not a single intelligence service has evidence that there is a link between Saddam and Al-Qaeda. Never heard of that.
Interesting. President Bush just made a statement to the contrary this evening. If it is an obvious lie, I would expect every Democrat considering the office in 2004 to call him on it. If it is an obvious lie, the silence is deafening.
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