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Old 05-21-2003, 05:25 PM   #16
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we a nation that takes the triumphalist's approach
There is some talk now and ten of "tolerance".

There is little to no talk of "mutual respect".

This Administration is perusing a triumphalist victory with their concept of "Christiandome".
A while back I came to a conclusion they were "Religious Absolutists". I don't think I saw this term in this essay.

Of course Binladen is a "Religious Absolutist" also. I put Sharon in that category also. There are many Jewish "Religious Absolutist". The essay suggested it was not part of their religion.
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Old 05-21-2003, 05:31 PM   #17
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


As a nation, we are neither. For if we were to take either approach, we would need to define who is our God or what was "right" - and we are very far from doing that.

nation

does not matter

The President as done what you stated above.
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Old 05-21-2003, 05:43 PM   #18
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Originally posted by deep
The President as done what you stated above.
For himself, but not the nation. Given our changes in leadership every 4-8 years, neither approach can be sustained.
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Old 05-21-2003, 06:00 PM   #19
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Jimmy Carter would speak of his religious beliefs as personal.

This President claims to speak for the nation.

He has said the people will not sway him.


Because the nation is a not monolith does not prevent those who hold power from taking the actions described.

True, we have elections every two years.
Because leaders may change does not mean a similar agenda will not be followed.
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Old 05-21-2003, 06:05 PM   #20
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good points deep
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Old 05-21-2003, 11:08 PM   #21
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wow, I actually didn't expect anyone to read all that. I'm quite happy to see such solid, thoughtful discussion. As for myself, I have a lot of thoughts and they are kinda all over the place, so I may have to wait till I am not ready to crash into bed before attempting to sort them out here. But I did want to mention, Dreadsox, that the bit about "religious war" also stuck out to me as well. The point was well made, I thought, about trying to define a true strand of a particular religion from the outside or perhaps even from the inside being contrary to the very notion of true faith. Anyways, I'll keep turning things over in my mind and try to make some intelligent comments (if that's possible) when I get some time.
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Old 05-22-2003, 07:05 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep
Jimmy Carter would speak of his religious beliefs as personal.

This President claims to speak for the nation.

He has said the people will not sway him.
It appears the distinction, if any, between GWB and Carter are based as much on agreement with their beliefs and positions as they are on how they live their faith & "speaking for the nation".
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Old 05-22-2003, 07:32 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


It appears the distinction, if any, between GWB and Carter are based as much on agreement with their beliefs and positions as they are on how they live their faith & "speaking for the nation".

Perhaps. I'm not a Bush supporter but I must give him credit for being, on the whole, fair about Islam based on his statements about the Islamic faith. Carter is more my type politically and religiously as well, however. I definitely do have a preference.
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Old 05-22-2003, 10:23 PM   #24
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No one mortal man can speak as the voice of an entire nation, ever!! Should that happen the nation will fall. History will repeat itself. Thank's too for this very enlightened post.
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Old 05-22-2003, 11:19 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
It appears the distinction, if any, between GWB and Carter are based as much on agreement with their beliefs and positions as they are on how they live their faith & "speaking for the nation".
Maybe. Jimmy Carter "abandoned" the Southern Baptist Convention in 1999. He appears to be a Southern Baptist before the fundamentalist takeover in the 1970s, a distinct minority these days, while Bush in an unapologetic "born again" Christian, who has also unapologetically courted the Christian Coalition. Carter, by his 1999 actions, I doubt would court it.

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Old 05-23-2003, 12:00 AM   #26
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I thought this might tie into the discussion started above.

Quote:
The Threat Among Us

By Cal Thomas

http://www.jewishworldreview.com |

Government officials warn that America remains in danger from Al Qaeda and other terrorist operatives who wish to destroy us. This is not a one-front war, because we also face dangers from within our democratic institutions.


Suppose our enemies have invaded the United States through immigration for the express purpose of organizing themselves politically? Suppose they present themselves as benign and seek to register voters, becoming politically active in order to elect their people to office and change U.S. policy in the Middle East? What if their intentions are the eventual destruction of this nation through its democratic processes and the imposition of a theocratic state? Would that be enough to get our attention?

In at least 16 states, Muslim groups, by their own admission, are organizing voter-registration drives and political consciousness-raising events for this express purpose. One of the advantages the United States has had over its enemies is that that they openly state their goals. One of the advantages our enemies have over the United States is that too many Americans don't take them seriously. We prefer the short-term comfort that denial brings. We fear being labeled "bigots" more than we fear the intentions of those who hate us, and so we are reluctant to speak ill of another person's faith, unless it is the majority faith.


Last Saturday (May 17), the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) opened its newest office in Columbia, S.C., a Southern city with strong Christian roots. The stated purpose of organizers was to discuss "the obligation of Muslims to participate in public affairs, CAIR's achievements and future goals of the organization."


Among those "future goals," according to a CAIR press release, is the elimination of references to "Judeo-Christian" when describing the heritage of the United States. Instead, CAIR and other Muslim groups prefer "Judeo-Christian-Islamic" or "Abrahamic." CAIR wants this new phrase used "in all venues where we normally talk about Judeo-Christian values, starting with the media, academia, statements by politicians and comments made in churches, synagogues and other places." Notice the absence of the word "mosques "in this statement. Muslim groups want Jews and Christians to tolerate them, but there is not a similar call for mosques to include Jewish and Christian beliefs.


You do not have to believe in conspiracies or be a bigot to realize something important is happening with this statement and in these political meetings. As Daniel Pipes, director of the Middle East Forum, wrote last month in JWR: "(CAIR is) on the wrong side in the war on terrorism," consistently defending militant Islamic groups and dictators, while "denouncing" terrorist acts. Pipes refers to a story reported in the San Ramon Valley (Calif.) Herald about CAIR Chairman Omar M. Ahmad, who told a crowd of California Muslims in July, 1998, "Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran ... should be the highest authority in America and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth."


In Canada, census figures released last week show that for the first time Muslims now outnumber Jews. The Canadian Muslim population increased 128.9 percent in the decade beginning in 1991, making Islam the fastest-growing faith in Canada. Muslims now make up 2 percent of the Canadian population, while Jews have declined from 1.2 to 1.1 percent, according to census data.


You don't have to be paranoid to fear where this can lead in Canada and in the United States -where immigration and births are dramatically increasing the Muslim population. Vote-hungry politicians might easily bow to the political objectives of Muslim voters, many of whom have agendas outside this country and, in fact, outside this world. When Muslims gain political power, the historical and contemporary record is not encouraging for people who hold democratic values and are of the "Judeo-Christian" persuasion. If politicians succumb to pressure from Muslim activist groups and equate Islam with the religious and political heritage of this country, we will know that an important beachhead has been attained by our enemies.


From their behavior in other parts of the world, one can safely predict they will use this beachhead to advance their cause.
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Old 05-23-2003, 12:08 AM   #27
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Blech...America's heritage was Anglican, Unitarian, and Agnostic / Deist. It would be enough that "Judeo-Christian-Islamic" fanatics would probably balk in disbelief.

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Old 05-23-2003, 11:20 PM   #28
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based on a quick read, I'd say it sounds overly dire and alarmist.
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Old 05-24-2003, 12:29 AM   #29
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based on a quick read, I'd say it sounds overly dire and alarmist.
i was thiking xenophobic
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Old 05-24-2003, 07:11 PM   #30
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What the hell, we're getting more Moslems. Moslems aren't a threat to anything or anyone. They are misunderstood by many Americans. If these Americans understood that Moslems are just ordinary people who follow another religion, there wouldn't be a perceived problem. They're afraid of something that doesn't exist.
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