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Old 11-29-2001, 10:13 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
Jewish priests threw in on top of the laws God ordained; things such as women not speaking in church, etc.
Oh really??

1 Corinthians 14:33-35--"As in all the churches of the holy ones, women should keep silent in the churches, for they are not allowed to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. But if they want to learn anything, they should ask their husbands at home. For it is improper for a woman to speak in the church."

1 Timothy 2:11-14--"A woman must receive instruction silently and under complete control. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. She must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. Further, Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and transgressed."

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time

[This message has been edited by melon (edited 11-29-2001).]
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Old 11-29-2001, 10:23 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon:
Oh really??

1 Corinthians 14:33-35--"As in all the churches of the holy ones, women should keep silent in the churches, for they are not allowed to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. But if they want to learn anything, they should ask their husbands at home. For it is improper for a woman to speak in the church."

1 Timothy 2:11-14--"A woman must receive instruction silently and under complete control. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. She must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. Further, Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and transgressed."
Melon
I should've said "in the temple" instead of "in teh church" because I was speaking of the Old Testament; there were laws for that, also.
But yes, these that you have quoted are also example of "cultural" mores.
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Old 11-29-2001, 10:31 PM   #33
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
But yes, these that you have quoted are also example of "cultural" mores.
That I completely agree with. I would not insist on ever demanding women to those extreme requirements in modern society, mostly because I don't see that as essential for faith.

Likewise, I throw the same label on prohibitions against homosexuals--"cultural mores." This, like the prohibition against women speaking in church, is not essential for faith.

Well, and I know I'm mostly speaking to the choir here, but I hope everyone, at least, understands why I would be angry in the first place.

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time
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Old 11-29-2001, 11:15 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon:
[BLikewise, I throw the same label on prohibitions against homosexuals--"cultural mores." This, like the prohibition against women speaking in church, is not essential for faith.[/B]
Melon, you know that I think homosexuality is wrong. However, I can also tell you that I do things I KNOW are wrong. I don't do them for the purpose of sinning, but that's neither here nor there - the point is, I sin. I don't have to, but I do. That's why I am not harder on homosexuals than I am on other sinners, including myself, because I know that ANY disobedience to God is wrong, whether it's a heterosexual doing it, or a homosexual doing it. Granted, there are sins which have much worse worldly consequences than others - for example, hurting your spouse by committing adultery, killing, stealing, and assaulting both physically and verbally. But sin is separation from God, plain and simple.
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Old 11-29-2001, 11:41 PM   #35
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Well, my tirade was mostly directed at my own religion, which is blissfully contradictory on the subject.

But this is where we shall disagree. Homosexuals are no more wrong than those disobedient women who dare to speak up in church (1 Tim 2:11-14) and those disobedient slaves who talk back to their masters (Tit 2:3).

But I know how often this subject comes up, and I know you're opinion, and I'm willing to leave it at that, in a respectful capacity.

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time
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Old 11-30-2001, 12:06 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon:
But I know how often this subject comes up, and I know your opinion, and I'm willing to leave it at that, in a respectful capacity.
Me too, me too.
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Old 11-30-2001, 12:10 AM   #37
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"your"

So I see you like to correct spelling too? I'm normally very good at that, but I just noticed "you're" in my previous post. Hehe...

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time
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Old 11-30-2001, 12:11 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon:
with Ecclesiastes 3, my old favorite, still in contention.
Turn! Turn! Turn! (To Everything There Is A Season)

Melon:

Might I suggest you explore the Episcopal Church? The national governing body has left it up to each local and state diocese (or conference, whatever they call them) as to how they implement some of the social guidelines that I think would be important to you. Granted, this is creating a schizm within the church but that is expected. Alabama's district has chosen to retain a moderate-to-conservative stance, while Florida's governing body, based in Orlando, has chosen a more liberal position on issues such as homosexuality. A side effect of the decision in Florida is that some of the conservative congregations have disassociated themselves and alligned with the Anglican Church in America.

I'm Methodist, but have Episcopal friends and I have attended their services. The style of worship seems to me to be right on the middle of Catholicism and Methodism.

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Old 11-30-2001, 01:04 AM   #39
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Melon, just make sure whatever choice you make is the one God wants for you. Or at least do the best you can to make sure, you know the drill, prayer, meditation and sober, honest contemplation.

Changing the church you belong to is an important decision, I'm sure you realize that, but many people don't. I can certainly understand your frustration, but like all things, God is trying to teach you something from it. What he is trying to teach you is for you to decide.

In the end, of course, the rules and politics of the church take a far back seat to your relationship with God. But where you worship, who you worship with and the way you worship is very important as well.

I'm sure you already know all this, but I've seen many who've abandoned thier worship structure out of frustration and really hurt thier spiritual lives.

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Old 11-30-2001, 01:06 AM   #40
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Some Ideas for Melon:

I had the same trouble with the catholic church and I searched the followin' beliefs, anyway, i believe in all of them, just cos God is God (Allah, Jehova, Jesus, Budha, a cow, whatever, if you wanna name Him Bono, be my guest )although I like Islam the best 'cos of the way they concieve God. This is what I like best of:

Judaism: This is a REAL monotheist belief. And they have this celebrations of the miracles God has made for them wich is very sweet. It is a sweet belief.
Christianism: Well, you know this one, I made the difference between Chistianism and Catholisism because i believe in almost every little thig Jesus said and in his message, you know, "love others as much as you love yourself" but i HATE the way the catholic church missundestand the message. BTW, have you tried charismatics? They are a lot more open than Roman catholics are.
Islam: I like the personal relation they have with God. And I like the idea of a God that wants you to know yourself enought to know how much can you give, and that wont ask you more than that. Another real monotheist belief. I can talk for hours about why i find it almost perfect, but i quit here.
Buddism: They are very open minded. They once made a joint to ask themselves if Budha has really existed and they found out that it doesnt matters if he existed or not, his message is what's worthy. That should be a religion spirit.
Hare Krishna & Hinduism: In fact i find them very alike in the practice. I love their pacifist spirit and the idea of living in harmony with your sourroundings and nature.

Personal advice: Take The Books, read them (The Torah, The Bible, The Koran, there are tons of books about Krishna, Budha and all) and take your own conclusions. If you are looking for a complete idea of God it will be very usefull but keep in mind that maybe you will never find a religion that suits you perfectly.

BTW, ppl being great and having sense of comunity and great basketball team are no reasons to stay in a religion. Or take a religion, Or leave a religion. My band is great, ppl there is awsome and I know they are always going to be there for me, but we couldn't be more different in our conception of God.

Love (that's what God is after all)


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Patti
-Pride Girl-

*Religion is what happens when the spirit has left the building* U2

[This message has been edited by Patti Jones (edited 11-29-2001).]
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Old 11-30-2001, 03:33 AM   #41
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I think one thing you have to really analyze is dogma vs. doctrine. Dogma is important and you need to believe in it. If you don't believe Jesus was the son of God, you may want to think about converting to a non-Christian religion.

On the other hand, doctrine is more lucid. Doctrine says you shouldn't be a homosexual but you don't have to agree with that to still be considered a Catholic. It seems that the issue you're dealing with Melon is more about doctrine than dogma.

In the end, I'm a practicing Catholic but I know the church is wrong at times. Did you know that there is a belief that the "sex after marriage" doctrine came about in the Middle Ages because the church couldn't care for all the poor children? Not sure if its true but not sure if its not. Did you hear that at one point priests could be married? Probably didn't hear it but some believe they have evidence that it happened.

In the end, my doctrine is based on Jesus saying in the New Testament that the new commandment he brought with him was "Love one another as you love Me." If I deeply love someone who died on a cross for me, why should I not love my enemy? Or love someone who had an abortion? Or love someone who is gay? Love anyone who would be considered a sinner? [he who is without sin cast the first stone]

Some of my best friends in college I met at the Catholic church that served the campus. We were all messed up in our own way-- abortions, suicidal tendencies, drug addictions, self mutilation, etc. etc. These are people that you are supposed to condemn in the Catholic church. But sometimes, when given the chance, those people tend to be the best role models and live better Christian lives than people who show up at church every Sunday and go home without living God's word. Agree or disagree with the church if you want, but in the end its your actions when you are outside of the church building that really show what kind of a Catholic you are.
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Old 11-30-2001, 10:21 AM   #42
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*breathe*

It has really hit me in the last couple days that I really can't drift away from the Church. It's too much a part of me. I can still really do without the hierarchy--the Pope, the Cardinals, the Bishops, the priests, etc.--because they really haven't done much for me in a really long time, and I guess I'm still waiting for that nonexistent dynamic priest like in Hollywood. I think the problem with dynamicism--and I've picked this up in my own archdiocese--is that all their good priests are elevated to bishops. So, great, I saw them three times when my siblings and got confirmed, and, with my last sibling about to get confirmed, I may see my last bishop in my lifetime very soon. Great speakers many of them are, and, at least for one day, I'm not questioning why I even go to Church anymore.

I could leave the Catholic Church, but I still would be angry. Perhaps, in my folly, I imagined that if I left that somehow it would all disappear; that the Pope would no longer exist, his rabidly bigoted right hand, Cardinal Ratzinger, would disappear, and, somehow, everything would get better. However, it's a silly thought, because I get mad at hearing Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, and "Dr." Laura, and neither of the three are my religion.

In the last three years, which have been a real rollercoaster of emotion, I undertook perhaps my most ambitious personal side-project, and I tried to understand why Catholicism is the way it is, and I discovered things that were incredibly beautiful about it, and, with all that knowledge in my head, I just don't know how I can just throw it all away and pick up the beliefs and ideas of another sect.

I'm still incredibly angry at the Pope, and any lasting respect that I did have for him has evaporated completely. It is only interesting when you can hit a point that you can pick apart statements and/or writings the Church makes and pick out the respective philosophies behind them--and then realize how faulty they really are. Perhaps I have been guilty of this here at times, but the Church, notoriously, likes to deluge its believers with such legalistic jargon that it often takes a Biblical scholar just to decipher it. When you cannot even communicate to the masses clearly, is it perhaps time for reevaluation?

Regardless, it isn't the hierarchy that makes the Church, it is the body of believers. I am sure I will always be a thorn on the side of the hierarchy, and, one of these days, I'm considering discussing these various beliefs of mine with a priest whom I can trust and respect. If I can find one someday, perhaps I will.

I can only feel slightly vindicated conscience-wise with the translation of the Dead Sea Scrolls, in hearing that it was not a fixed text and that many added their own prejudices in it. If I could get a hold of an unabridged English translation of all the volumes of the scrolls (I believe that there are nearly 40), I'd probably be in my element. Honestly, I did not realize that all the original Hebrew documents had been lost and we were working from Greek texts all along. We learn something new everyday, yes?

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time
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Old 11-30-2001, 10:32 AM   #43
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All I have to add is-reading your last post Melon

Keep hanging in there-it's worth it for sure.

You would still be angry if you left, and, for sure, it IS the body of believers.

No religion that's 'easy' is worth it, is it?
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Old 11-30-2001, 10:33 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon:
"your"
So I see you like to correct spelling too? I'm normally very good at that, but I just noticed "you're" in my previous post. Hehe...
Oh no, I am VERY sorry about that. It's just a habit. I didn't do it purposefully, honest. I just did that out of habit, because teh your and you're issue is what bugs me the most in spelling. Sorry.
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Old 11-30-2001, 10:34 AM   #45
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Melon-- I have to say I'm really impressed with your analysis. The Pope is the Pope, he's going to die someday and they're going to elect someone else who will run the church in a different way perhaps. But in the end, the Pope is but a small part of the church and you reminded me of that.

I'm glad you brought this topic up. Some of the opinions in this thread I agree with and some I don't but its been a very interesting thread to read and be a part of. With religion, people sometimes get too passionate and go overboard but I think this has been a really interesting, eye opening and thought provoking issue. So thanks all.
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