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Old 09-26-2004, 07:37 PM   #31
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No doubt the casualties are still relatively low for a country of 25 million, especially compared to civilian casualties in past wars. But the fact is, most people did live in relative normalcy, with jobs, families, and children going to school. If there was a serious humanitarian issue that needed to be addressed, it should've been, but that was obviously not the purpose of this war...only the fallback reason when all others proved false. Saudi Arabia is the most oppressive government in the ME, but we continue to openly line their pockets for oil, then wonder why the entire population hates us. I hate to sound morbid/insensitive again, but I think you'll have trouble arguing that, in the context of other crises in the world, this was particularly iminent. Sorry.

Now that we're in there, of course, I still do hope for the best possible results in Iraq. I hope we can secure an ally in the region and be a moderating force, not through war, but through world opinion, public pressure, and prescence. But what I've heard on the news lately doesn't sound good at all.
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Old 09-26-2004, 07:37 PM   #32
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Bootleg -- I totally understand your moral beliefs and I tried to outline my views based on that. I have a friend who, like you, is anti-abortion, but she also works at a school and has seen how wrong Bush's education plan is. Cutting money to fund breakfast programs for poor kids, No Child Left Behind leaving children behind, etc. We should worry about the unborn but we should also worry about those who already live in our country and are being forgetten.

I don't believe voting for Bush makes you unchristian. But in my particular case, my religious beliefs are pointing me toward Kerry in addition to many other things.
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Old 09-26-2004, 07:57 PM   #33
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regarding education ... the federal government is not in charge of organizing ecucational systems. that's why you always hear about different states having different standards for high school graduation and why different state universities have different standards for admission/graduation. the federal government alots funding for each state to organize their own education in the way they believe is best for their state. 'no child left behind' is creating federal/general standards that ALL states must follow. what it doesn't account for is variance between states on their education plan AND the current state of the education system. poorer states are in a different position and must create different goals than more wealthy states. moreover, public schools are funded mostly by local property taxes. therefore every school must follow the guidelines of the taxpayers, the state, and now also the federal government. with three separate authorities demanding different visions and goals, those that are truly hurt are the teachers and students. it's like roads...local roads are funded by local property taxes, state highways are funded by money alotted to each state, and interstate highways are funded by the federal government. there is a separation in authority ... therefore separation in who funds the projects/maintenence. in terms of education, the three authorities are demanding standards of the same schools ... all educational systems in the country. another thing that surprises me is that why more republicans aren't saying that 'no child left behind' is taking away rights from states and strengthening the federal government. republicans are supposed to be for states' rights, however this clearly gives more authority to the federal government. i think bush favored this bill so that he could use it as a political tool to convince the public he is supposrting education. i mean look at the name, how could anyone possibly be against the "no child left behind" act right? well it's pretty easy to see that students are being hurt greatly with these overbearing standards that do not fit the individual needs of every individual community.
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Old 09-26-2004, 08:40 PM   #34
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I'm an evangelical, born-again Christian-a sinner redeemed by Christ's blood-whose vote is constantly courted by the Conservative Right...and I'm a staunch Kerry/Edwards supporter for a variety of reasons.

Why am I voting for Kerry...and why should you consider doing so? Well, many of the reasons given in this thread have to do with it...so I don't want to rehash those...but perhaps consider some of the following thoughts:

A. My wife and I tried for 8 years to have a child...God blessed us with our first in Sept. of last year. Our personal belief's led us to desire breast feeding for the first 12 months for the child's health and well-being. My wife was an officer in the Army National Guard...had served faithfully for the last 13 years...never been deployed...was almost out when...Pres Bush sells the American public Iraq has WMD etc...wife is told she is going to Iraq for 18 months when our baby is only 4 months old...Army makes her stop breastfeeding our child for her deployment...I repeat...the child is only 4 months old and his mother is getting deployed to a combat zone for 18 months! Yet, Pres Bush has the nerve to tell us he's "pro family" and "compassionate"...yet nothing is pro family about a policy that takes mother's away from their breast feeding infant children...he had 3 years to change the policy...he didn't even respond to our letters...his administration conveniently uses the National Guard as a back door draft..Iraq never was and is not a threat to the U.S....enough said on that topic.

B. Economic policy. The Republican Party has been hijacked by an extreme band of neo-cons. Take taxes. When Bush talks about "tax reform" or "...cutting taxes to put more money in hard working people's pockets" or "...simplifying the tax code" it is all code word for sticking it to the average joe...who happens to be lower to middle income America. Let me be the first to say that God has blessed my family business with financial rewards and that my family is one of those who disproportionately benefit from the Bush tax cuts as a result. I don't need the tax cuts. I'd rather the money be used to extend unemployment benefits, increase the minimum wage, reduce health care costs or better yet reduce the deficit. But that isn't the Bush way... Take his desire for a "national sales tax" to replace our current tax code. Couldn't be a more reckless idea. First, non-partisan's have already calculated that a national sales tax would have to be as high as 40 percent or more to be revenue neutral. Of course, Bush says that number is high, it would only need to be around 23 percent. Either way, a national sales tax greatly benefits the wealthy. Those taxpayers in the lower to middle income brackets CONSUME their earnings, meaning they would be constantly getting whacked with a 40 percent sales tax on all purchases...while the wealthier taxpayers can SAVE their money...effectively avoiding such a tax. Meanwhile, the Bush tax cuts defy logic. His party is renowned for also wanting a "flat tax"...and these tax cuts have "flattened" the rates tremendously since he took office. Again, a flat tax benetits the wealthy, this is why study after study shows that wealthier Americans (like me) get most of the benefit...it's absurd. There is a reason why Bush and the Republican's aren't concerned with record budget deficits...because their game plan in a second term is to lament the very deficits they have created with fool hearty tax and economic policies by cutting SPENDING...in other words... "...ladies and gentleman, our deficit is huge. As a result, we MUST CUT SPENDING". Exactly WHAT THE REPUBLICANS WANT! They are certainly sly at accomplishing their goals at the expense of the rank and file American worker. Hardly a Christian thing to do...another reason I can't support this man or his party.

C. I despise Bush's lies, arrogance, and pompous attitude toward other countries and other Americans who don't agree with him. Every day on the campaign trail he grossly misleads and distorts Kerry's record. I know, all politicians are guilty of this one, but the Bush/Cheney team takes the cake. As a man who so publicly presents himself as a Christian, his actions and words on the campaign trail are extremely disappointing to say the least.

D. Health Care. Bush doesn't care about the average American...and he certainly doesn't care about their plight regarding health care. John Edwards is right when he says there are "Two America's...one for the rich and one for everyone else". Bush cares about the rich. His approach to health care is more evidence to this. He wants us all to have our "health saving accounts" and for employers to receive tax credits for offering health reimbursement arrangements" etc. Again, these policies sound great in the election year spin, but they only advance the "rich" American agenda Bush/Cheney want to help. Health Savings Accounts are so tilted toward favoring the rich they might as well call them "Bonus Retirment Accounts for the Well-to-do". Don't know any "ordinary" American's who could ever utilize or benefit from one of these accounts...and they certainly do nothing to address the growing health care crisis in this country...but they certainly help the wealthy, no doubt about that. Remember, HSA's are geared toward replacing Archer MSA's...you remember those, right? Yeah, they were supposed to "revolutionize" health care insurance and health care costs...yet they failed miserably because the only people who could afford them were the 2 percent of wage earners in America who could afford them...HSA's are no better.

D. I guess it's ok to let assault weapons back on the street. I mean, at least Bush thinks so. Once again, Bush bows down to the gun lobby, who have been so effective at making gun owners and sportmen everywhere think that all Democrats want to take their 22 caliber away so they can't hunt Bambi. Just ridiculous. I don't know of a true "sportsman" who needs an uzi to hunt Bambi effectively...but there are plenty of criminals smiling today now that Pres Bush and the Republicans have let assault weapons back on our streets. Good work, boys...another reason I can't support this President.

Look, I don't support every position of Kerry...I'm not in favor of gay marriage or civil unions....though I believe every citizen is entitled to equal and civil rights. Morally, abortion is a tough one as I'm personally and religiously opposed to it. But these are "wedge" issues...and I try not to let my reiligious beliefs unduly influence my political beliefs. Bush's vision for America is clear...and it scares me as the "wrong" choices for America. Both men are going to do all they can to protect us...don't buy the Republican "fear" mongoring that under Kerry another attack will occur....didn't a certain event 3 years ago occur on Bush's watch?

Fact is, your decision should come down to who you think will best restore jobs in America, who best will provide us with affordable, accessible health care, who best will restore America's integrity and image throughout the world, who best will educate our children, who best will look out for the average American...who will tell us the truth, who won't lead us into an unnecessary and costly war, and who won't use are Armed Forces for personal political gain and our National Guard and Reservists won't be pawns in a "back-door" draft that takes them away from their jobs and family for 18 months at a time. Bush's policies are anything but "compassionate" or "conservative". They are reckless, arrogant, and self-serving. If you think taking money out of the hands of honest, hard working middle class American's is compassionate, then by all means Bush is your man. Otherwise, the choice is clear...ANYBODY BUT BUSH!

Respectfully,
LSTB
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Old 09-26-2004, 09:16 PM   #35
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Old 09-26-2004, 09:24 PM   #36
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Wow. Kudos to your wife. I'd have gone to jail for assualting the President over that.


Why do some folk use Kerry and his pros/cons when negating the validity of a Bush criticism? Fair dinkum. It's no wonder FYM is the most venomous place on this site. Dont even the Reps find it frustrasting? Truly.
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Old 09-26-2004, 09:41 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
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Old 09-26-2004, 09:42 PM   #38
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^Indeed - valid points raised.

Isn't it Anybody But BUllSHit/BUSHitler/list goes on and on and on. I think the behaviour of many fringe nuts has reflected badly on the Dems. Michael Moore is definitely not the direction that any mainstream party should embrace.
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Old 09-26-2004, 10:20 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
^Indeed - valid points raised.

Isn't it Anybody But BUllSHit/BUSHitler/list goes on and on and on. I think the behaviour of many fringe nuts has reflected badly on the Dems. Michael Moore is definitely not the direction that any mainstream party should embrace.
I think it can be said for both parties, both have embraced some nuts.
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Old 09-27-2004, 12:19 AM   #40
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Like Someone To Blame, your post is outstanding! I hope you will share it far beyond this forum, like with your local newspaper. It would make a great Op-Ed piece in a paper.
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Old 09-27-2004, 12:28 AM   #41
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Why oh why does one feel that just becuase you are an American Christian you HAVE to be a Republican? I'm a challenge to that paradigm I suppose.
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Old 09-27-2004, 12:50 AM   #42
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you are a conservative

you are a christian

you are a republican

you are voting for bush or kerry
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Old 09-27-2004, 02:25 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
^Indeed - valid points raised.

Isn't it Anybody But BUllSHit/BUSHitler/list goes on and on and on. I think the behaviour of many fringe nuts has reflected badly on the Dems. Michael Moore is definitely not the direction that any mainstream party should embrace.
I believe you are the only one who makes the bush/hitler statement in fym though

now you do it just about every day so it does get repeated a lot
but it's an issue that so far plays no part in this forum whatsoever

more than wanting to know why you keep repeating this
I'd appreciate it if you'd just give it a break for a month or 2
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Old 09-27-2004, 02:28 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
Wow. Kudos to your wife. I'd have gone to jail for assualting the President over that.
it would just about change once view on gun control yes
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Old 09-27-2004, 02:38 AM   #45
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So that reference falls under Goodwin's law?

I have probably made about 5 references to that and all were in relation to those "fringe nuts reflecting badly on the dems" it is a sorry state of affairs when you have people embracing this, just making a point that the way many have painted Bush reflects badly on their own position and hence that of their candidates. In this case using the Bushitler remark to lead into the level of crazyness that the Democratic party has been gravitating towards.

I dont think that anybody on FYM adheres to such views and that that is comendable. I will abstain from the reference unless it is entirely apt for the situation - which it can be. I have not seen anybody here reduce arguments by violating Goodwins law and I have no intention on doing it.

All good now?
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