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Old 09-26-2004, 04:08 PM   #16
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If I were voting on education alone...hands down it is Kerry. I like the idea of No Child Left Behind. I do not like the fact that it has NOT been funded, teachers, and more importantly students are getting screwed because of it.
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Old 09-26-2004, 04:10 PM   #17
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Just to let you know: Abortion is kind of a non-issue anyway. Kerry is pro-choice, and though Bush plays to the conservatives on that one, he did nothing in his 4 years as president to change the abortion laws. If you are against abortion, you are out of luck in that area, but you can at least respect that Kerry hasn't said one thing and done another.

I already addressed economics (not very in-depth, but you get the picture). As far as education, Bush's No Child Left Behind has been totally underfunded and institutes a new level of standardized tests. Basically it attempts to judge a school on standardized test performances, disadvantaging students who don't perform as well as they could on this sort of test, and leading teachers to "teach for the test" as it's called. In other words, they teach multiple-choice, strictly-cirriculum geared lessons and leave little time for teaching more abstract concepts or analysis, resulting in a generation who can recite facts, but cannot think for themselves.
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Old 09-26-2004, 04:17 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by VertigoGal
If you are against abortion, you are out of luck in that area, but you can at least respect that Kerry hasn't said one thing and done another.
Actually, I distinctly remember reading something, probably here on FYM, that Kerry had said or implied that he was anti-abortion, but voted otherwise (am I not mistaken that he voted against a ban on partial birth abortion?)

Anyway.....
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Old 09-26-2004, 04:45 PM   #19
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No, I don't think Kerry was or ever has been anti-abortion, although I could be wrong. At any rate, it's certainly not his platform this time around. Of course feel free to prove me wrong! Even then, it'd cancel out (both candidates purporting to be anti-abortion but not showing that in their actions).

Again, though, I'd stress trying to put aside your moral beliefs as far as abortion goes. You've just got to realize that no candidate in the forseeable future will do anything drastic on that issue; it's too risky.

Any other questions I could help ya out with?
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Old 09-26-2004, 04:56 PM   #20
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It's kinda hard to just toss all my moral, ethical, and religious beliefs out the window which is why I need some REALLY good reasons to vote one way or the other.
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Old 09-26-2004, 05:02 PM   #21
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I'm voting for Kerry because of health care costs. Health care costs have absolutely gone nuts, and I'm sorry to say that I don't think Bush has a plan to do anything about it. Thus, my vote will go to Kerry.
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Old 09-26-2004, 05:37 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic
It's kinda hard to just toss all my moral, ethical, and religious beliefs out the window
What are your moral, ethical and religious beliefs based on?

Politics?

Or, to pose the question in another way: do your moral, ethical and religious beliefs have all and everything to do with who you vote for? I mean, thats ok,.. it would just make me wonder, because most people base their beliefs on other things.
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Old 09-26-2004, 05:52 PM   #23
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I'm a conservative christian republican too and I'm voting Bush because of (mostly) moral issues. Abortion is a very big one.
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Old 09-26-2004, 05:55 PM   #24
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Personally I find the idea of a pre emptive strike against Iraq and going into a war of choice holds the biggest contradiction to my Christian beliefs.

I am a firm believer of the sparation of church and state. I think there are times you use your moral compass to guide your political stances and there are times when you do what's right for the country.
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Old 09-26-2004, 05:59 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by shart1780
I'm a conservative christian republican too and I'm voting Bush because of (mostly) moral issues. Abortion is a very big one.
Because Bush is going to end it?

Do you have the same outrage in his war of choice and his high record of death penalty killings?
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Old 09-26-2004, 06:49 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic
It's kinda hard to just toss all my moral, ethical, and religious beliefs out the window which is why I need some REALLY good reasons to vote one way or the other.
I'm not saying that. I'm saying neither candidate is going to do what you'd like them to do about abortion, so you should base your decision on other issues first. And of course you'll use your morals and spirituality when deciding who to vote for. If it's morally right to send people our age off to war for oil and power, or to kill 16,000 Iraqis at the very least. If it's morally right to abandon those who cannot work anymore, and leave them without any health care coverage, so they are forced to cut pills in half. If it's morally right to've been the governer of Texas with the highest number of executions in the state's history.

When you say you need some good reasons to vote one way or the other, do you mean that, or do you mean you need some good reasons to vote for Kerry instead of just going along with Bush as planned?
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Old 09-26-2004, 06:49 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic


Actually, I distinctly remember reading something, probably here on FYM, that Kerry had said or implied that he was anti-abortion, but voted otherwise (am I not mistaken that he voted against a ban on partial birth abortion?)

Anyway.....
Pro-choice does not neccessarily mean pro-abortion. For example I'm not sure what I would actually do if I had an unplanned pregnancy, but I would never presume to tell anyone else what they must do.

So a person can be personally unwilling to ever have an abortion for any reason whatsoever, yet still be able to allow others to make their own decision. So I do believe that a person can believe abortion is wrong, but allow others the right to come to their own decision on the matter. I actually think many people who consider themselves pro-choice fall into this catagory.


PS I am just giving my opinion. I did not intend to attack anyone else's opinion.
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Old 09-26-2004, 06:55 PM   #28
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I just recieved an e-mail, mostly conservative junk (such as Clinton commiting felonies while in office) but it illustrates a double standards when discussing war and business by many.
Quote:
I'm trying to get all this political stuff straightened out in my head so I'll know how to vote come November. Right now, we have one guy saying one thing. Then the other guy says something else. Who to believe. Lemme see; have I got this straight?
Clinton awards Halliburton no-bid contract in Yugoslavia - good... Bush awards Halliburton no-bid contract in Iraq - bad...
Clinton spends 77 billion on war in Serbia - good... Bush spends 87 billion in Iraq - bad...
Clinton imposes regime change in Serbia - good... Bush imposes regime change in Iraq - bad... Clinton bombs Christian Serbs on behalf of Muslim Albanian terrorists -good... Bush liberates 25 million from a genocidal dictator - bad...
Clinton bombs Chinese embassy - good.... Bush bombs terrorist camps - bad....
Clinton commits felonies while in office - good... Bush lands on aircraft carrier in jumpsuit - bad... Stock market crashes in 2000 under Clinton - good... Recession under Bush - bad...
Clinton refuses to take custody of Bin Laden - good... World Trade Centers fall under Bush - Bad...
Clinton calls for regime change in Iraq - good...
Bush imposes regime change in Iraq - bad...
Terrorist training in Afghanistan under Clinton - good... Bush destroys training camps in Afghanistan - bad...
Clinton says mass graves in Serbia - good... Entire world says WMD in Iraq - bad...
No mass graves found in Serbia - good... No WMD found Iraq - bad...
Milosevic not yet convicted - good... Saddam in custody - bad..
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Old 09-26-2004, 07:10 PM   #29
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You are correct that people on both sides will always use double-standards; it's inevitable. But, as far as Serbia...there was an IMINENT genocidal situation. There was an international coalition under NATO, and a bombing campaign was able to halt the genocide with relatively few civilian and military deaths. Since when did Clinton bomb the Christian Serbs on behalf of Muslim terrorists? Is genocide accpetable as long as so-called Christians are the perpetrators?

No matter what you say about Saddam, and I'll agree he was a harsh dictator who has killed many people over the years, you cannot argue that the situation there was one of the top 5 humanitarian crises at the moment. It's morbid, but the situation WAS relatively stable. We don't give a flying f*** about the people in Congo or Sudan or Burma being massacred, apparently.

I really hope this works out for the sake of the Iraqi people, I just have a bad feeling about where this is headed (bloody sectarian civil war resulting in military coup where Shi'ite or Sunni military group comes into power and oppresses the minority more harshly than Saddam was doing in the past few years; that's what I fear).

Clinton wasn't the best president to exist; he did the same thing by pulling out of Somalia when he realized there was nothing for US to win there. He didn't act soon enough in Rwanda (although, in his defense, that did all happen in less than 60 days), but at least he had the dignity to go there and apologize.

But Clinton is not running for president, Bush and Kerry are. And Kerry is, in my opinion, a far better candidate.
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Old 09-26-2004, 07:22 PM   #30
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But in Iraq you had people dying in the tens of thousands at the hands of the regime annually. The casualites caused by intervention are substantially less than that of leaving Saddam in power. I think the issue of motivation and willingness ties into this, the public were willing to intervene in Iraq whereas intervention in Congo or Sudan would not recieve the political support - the shadows of Mogadishu loom large in US foreign policy, people do not accept casualties in war.

All quite difficult, I am of the opinion that the greatest blow to Islamism can be achieved by laying down a progressive and democratic Arab/Muslim state. This will not happen overnight but if Iraq can take security into its own hands over time it could grow. Only one exit strategy here - Victory.
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