Illegal Immigration: Where do you stand?

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Macfistowannabe

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Without getting all Iraqi-wacky (please use any other thread for that), how does it make sense to leave the backdoor open to illegals in a post-9/11 world? It costs this country billions of dollars to feed, clothe, and treat illegal aliens who don't even belong here in the first place. This is a non-partisan issue, so why have both the right and the left ignored it?

Why oppose illegal immigration?
* In 2004 alone, THREE MILLION ILLEGALLS crossed the Mexican-American border.
* An estimated 1 in 5 illegals get caught.
* It's not just Mexican immigrants looking for jobs outside of their own borders. Terrorists may sneak into the country as well.
* 8,000 illegals enter the states every day of the year.
* There are already between 15,000,000 to 20,000,000 illegals living in the US.
* Illegals have been eating up welfare, medicaid, and emergency treatment, putting the US economy on a grill and forcing hospitals out of business, especially in border states.

On an annual federal level, illegal aliens cost US taxpayers...
$2.1 billion to lock them up in prisons.
$2.5 billion in Medicaid.
$2.2 billion in uninsured medical costs.
$1.4 billion in federal aid to schools.
$1.9 billion in food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches.

Why aren't we doing more to protect our borders?
 
I think our borders are being almost completely ignored, and we're allowing them to get driver's licences. It makes no sense in a time like this when we have an administration bragging about being tough on terrorism:huh:
 
Macfistowannabe said:

It costs this country billions of dollars to feed, clothe, and treat illegal aliens who don't even belong here in the first place. This is a non-partisan issue, so why have both the right and the left ignored it?

* Illegals have been eating up welfare, medicaid, and emergency treatment, putting the US economy on a grill and forcing hospitals out of business, especially in border states.

On an annual federal level, illegal aliens cost US taxpayers...
$2.1 billion to lock them up in prisons.
$2.5 billion in Medicaid.
$2.2 billion in uninsured medical costs.
$1.4 billion in federal aid to schools.
$1.9 billion in food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches.




are you sure about these stats?
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:
I think our borders are being almost completely ignored, and we're allowing them to get driver's licences. It makes no sense in a time like this when we have an administration bragging about being tough on terrorism:huh:
In my view, this issue is Bush's biggest weakness. It makes no sense to open his ears so wide to a man like Vicente Fox, who came up with the brilliant idea of selling off lengthly guides for illegals to cross the US border. As far as I'm concerned, protecting the border from illegals is half the battle when it comes to combating terrorism. Sure, we've taken a number of measures to protect America, but a free for all on the border will bring in more and more crime into the country, and furthermore, pinch the economy.
 
Well, they give us $7+ billion a year in uncollected Social Security contributions.

Anyway, it's certainly symptomatic of a larger problem in this nation, and too many businesses profit off of illegal immigrants. That's particularly why Bush will never do a damn thing about it.

Melon
 
Macfistowannabe said:
Sure, we've taken a number of measures to protect America, but a free for all on the border will bring in more and more crime into the country, and furthermore, pinch the economy.

I agree but searching babies because of their name and coming up with neat little colored warnings won't do shit? How much have we really changed our security? I mean secure borders I think would be a priority, but then again I'm no expert.:|
 
I dont think this problem is uniquely American, and frankly has little consequence of 9/11 unless you are going to take a paranoid slant that all immigrants want to blow up some civilians :rolleyes:
Here, we've been dealing with this problem for a very long time. We get boatloads, rather than border crossings, naturally. I remember the outrage the international media spat out over Tampa and honestly, if one thing pisses me off, it's ignorance.

I'm split as there is this battle betwen the legal and logistical ramifications, and the humanitarian issues. Laws can be bent, but we, for example, can only do so much.
 
I love it.

Another American boo-hooing 'cause our country is so great that half the world wants to come here...

Oh yeah. Let's seal the borders.

Do you have any idea how difficult it would be to completely seal our borders? You remember the Berlin Wall? That's the kind of hardware it would take to really and truly keep out the 'undesirables'.

And we really want to live behind something like that. Oh yeah.
 
Yeah, I'm with echo. I've never understood why we're so tight with our borders, either (moreso our U.S./Mexico one than our U.S./Canada border, it seems, too-correct me if I'm wrong about that, though)-we call ourselves the land of opportunity, and yet want borders restricted...eh :huh:? I think we should just let any immigrants who want to come here do so. If they're good, hard-working citizens, they stay. If they start causing trouble, they get punished/sent back.

That probably sounds too simple, as people have mentioned this is a rather complex issue, but there's my bit about it right now.

Angela
 
Why aren't we doing anything about it?

The Republicans won't do anything because illegal immigrants help large corporations, part of the Republican constituency.

The Democrats won't do anything about it because a) with few exceptions, there aren't many Democrats governing these southern states where most immigrants are and b) they don't want to seem like they are alienating the Hispanic population, since the Democrats right now are always on the defensive lately
 
Well, we certainly lack a cohesive and effective immigration policy. We will never stop all illegal immigration; however, we can manage it more effectively.

1. Significant more border patrols. Anyone caught entering
the country illegally has any immediate medical needs tended
to and then is immediately deported.
2. Any company found to have hired illegal immigrants (or hired
a firm that they would have reasonable suspicion to believe
was lax in determining legal status) would be fined. If that
employee paid these immigrants below minimum wage, the
fine would be tripled. A second violation could lead to
criminal prosecution and/or suspension of any business
licenses along with a substantial fine.
3. Any child born on American soil would still be an American
citizen, but that would not confer legal status on the family.
4. Current illegal immigrants would have two years to apply for
legal status if they have not been convicted of a felony.
Should they not apply for legal status in that time period,
if caught, they will be deported. Background checks will
be performed.
5. Any illegal (or possibly any status less than naturalized citizen)
convicted of a felony will serve their sentence and then be
deported. If they are a resident alien, they may be stripped
of that status.
6. Anyone caught transporting illegal aliens will serve a minimum
of two years. Anyone whose transport of illegal aliens led to
the death or serious injury of those aliens and who is
convicted of such will spend a minimum of 5 years in prison
(personally, I would give them life.)
7. Illegal aliens will still be entitled to emergency medical care.
For anything other than emergency medical care, anyone not
covered by insurance will be required to show proof of legal
status. The hospital may still choose to treat the illegals,
but will receive no government reimbursement.
8. No one who does not have legal status will be eligible for
welfare or other social programs other than emergency, short-
term assistance. Application for such after the two year grace
period may lead to deportation.
9. Anyone with an expired visa no longer has legal status and
if they do not show proof of having applied for renewel will
be deported. Proof of that renewel will then be monitored.
10. Universities and other institutions that educate foreign
students shall be required to maintain current addresses on
the students and the students will be required to provide
current physical addresses to the schools. Failure to provide
current physical addresses should be reason to bar the student
from registration, which may invalidate the student visa.
Schools must then be required to notify appropriate parties
if a student graduates or leaves the school. Student visas are
ripe for abuse.

Many of these laws are already on the books. They just need to be enforced. Now does the government have the balls to do it?

All that being said, I recognize that very few Americans have earned the right to be US citizens. Most Americans were either born here or born of US citizens and that was the sole criterion. However, the prime role of the government is to protect its citizens right here.

I recognize that this does not stop all of the terrorist or social problems that may arise. We have plenty of legals, including American citizens, misusing the system. And the 9/11 hijackers were generally here under legal status or had applied for legal
status and we had Timothy McVeigh and the London subway bombers were British citizens.
(I remember that ironic government gaffe when several months after 9/11 , Mohammed Atta's visa was approved.)

All this will be probably be expensive, but considerably less expensive than Iraq.

America generally thrives on the influx of legal immigrants. And probably thrives on the production and other input of many of the illegal immigrants. But it's a balancing game. We've swerved over to a too lenient policy and need to swerve back some.
I'd like to give legal status to as many productive illegals as possible which is why I want the grace period.

Part of me thinks that perhaps for a three year period, we should ban all immigration and not issue any visas to anyone until we get all this settled, but that is impractical and probably unfair.
 
Part of me thinks that perhaps for a three year period, we should ban all immigration and not issue any visas to anyone until we get all this settled, but that is impractical and probably unfair. [/B]

Oh yeah, that would be grand. Punish innocent people that just want to come visit or study. Speaking for myself, as someone who has a boyfriend that has been going through the endless hoop-jumping that is already the procedure for getting a visa, I would have to disagree.

Do you have any idea how hard it is for someone who had the bad luck to be born in a poor country? They can't travel. They aren't free to go where they like. They're suspects everywhere and denied access to places that we would take for granted. Example.

My boyfriend and I will (hopefully) be flying to the States soon. In looking for tickets for this trip, we have to make sure that they don't involve any changing of airports or layovers where we have to go through customs. Why? Because there is no way in hell that he would be allowed into any European country even if it was just to change airports to catch a plane. I on the other hand don't even have to get a stamp in my passport. I just wave it at the officials and walk through without them giving me more than a glance.

All that to say, it is very easy to sit in a rich country and tsk tsk about "all those people" that want to come to your country. But keep in mind that there are two different standards and that all people are apparently NOT created equal. If you want to come visit my boyfriend's country, you can just show up and they'll stamp your passport at the airport. They won't treat you like a criminal.
 
BonosSaint said:
3. Any child born on American soil would still be an American
citizen, but that would not confer legal status on the family.

Ummmm...that's already true.

8. No one who does not have legal status will be eligible for
welfare or other social programs other than emergency, short-
term assistance. Application for such after the two year grace
period may lead to deportation.


Also already true. Only American citizens (and in SOME cases, though not all, lawful permanent residents) are entitled to means-tested public benefits. Illegal immigrants receive public benefits most often because (a) they are using forged documents; or (b) their children are American citizens and thus eligible for public benefits.

9. Anyone with an expired visa no longer has legal status and
if they do not show proof of having applied for renewel will
be deported. Proof of that renewel will then be monitored.


Already true. The trick is tracking down and monitoring visa overstays, which can be incredibly difficult, and generally, if a person staying illegally stays below the radar, so to speak, CIS looks the other way.

Many of these laws are already on the books. They just need to be enforced. Now does the government have the balls to do it?


Balls? Try time and tax dollars. CIS is a bloated, inefficient, ridiculous bureau that wastes incredible amounts of time and money harassing people who want to come here legally while turning a blind eye to millions of illegals.

Part of me thinks that perhaps for a three year period, we should ban all immigration and not issue any visas to anyone until we get all this settled, but that is impractical and probably unfair.


When you say this, I think of a man I met in a restaurant last year. He was Chinese and working as a sushi chef. He was in the country legally and was trying to bring his wife to the States (only lawful permanent residents and citizens can do that), and he hadn't seen his wife in two years.

Two years. Imagine not seeing your spouse in two years.

So you would deny a spousal visa to the wife of a man who came here legally and had a job?

This is the side of immigration people often forget about in the wake of problems with illegals...people who want to come here, totally legally, for the sake of family reunification. Or to study, like Sula's boyfriend.

An isolationist policy will not work.
 
Yes; tighter controls on illegal immigration and a streamlined process for legal immigration.

I think that the Howard government here is right on mandatory detention and deportation of illegal immigrants, the ambiguities about their own status is what creates delays. If you have tighter border control then quotas of legal immigration should be raised.
 
pax said:
An isolationist policy will not work.

Quite right, for as long as there's a division of wealth in this world as well as war and famine etc, you're going to have migration. The financial and moral costs of putting up walls around your country (or like in the EU, almost around an entire continent) are too high. The real assholes usually find a way around them, while the people in need get shut out.
 
Macfistowannabe said:
Without getting all Iraqi-wacky (please use any other thread for that), how does it make sense to leave the backdoor open to illegals in a post-9/11 world? It costs this country billions of dollars to feed, clothe, and treat illegal aliens who don't even belong here in the first place. This is a non-partisan issue, so why have both the right and the left ignored it?

Why oppose illegal immigration?
* In 2004 alone, THREE MILLION ILLEGALLS crossed the Mexican-American border.
* An estimated 1 in 5 illegals get caught.
* It's not just Mexican immigrants looking for jobs outside of their own borders. Terrorists may sneak into the country as well.
* 8,000 illegals enter the states every day of the year.
* There are already between 15,000,000 to 20,000,000 illegals living in the US.
* Illegals have been eating up welfare, medicaid, and emergency treatment, putting the US economy on a grill and forcing hospitals out of business, especially in border states.

On an annual federal level, illegal aliens cost US taxpayers...
$2.1 billion to lock them up in prisons.
$2.5 billion in Medicaid.
$2.2 billion in uninsured medical costs.
$1.4 billion in federal aid to schools.
$1.9 billion in food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches.

Why aren't we doing more to protect our borders?



will you be stepping up to pick our strawberries, perform our contract labor, and mop my bathrooms at work?

(sorry for the regeneration of stereotypes, but that is what many illegals are able to do -- the menial jobs that 99.99% of Americans or Australians would never think of doing themselves)
 
Im totally heartless on this issue compared to where I stand on some things.
I come from a poor town on the Oregon coast that is full of illegal mexicans and they keep half the town from getting jobs because they dont work for much.
Theyve taken a good portion of the housing in a part of town and turned it into a gang zone.
And my family got kicked off the Oregon health plan while we had ZERO money because they said we had too high an income to get benefits anymore. We asked why, and they told us honestly (dunno if this was legal) that the influx of illegals have hurt the system
So Im biased. Totally.
 
A_Wanderer said:
Yes; tighter controls on illegal immigration and a streamlined process for legal immigration.

I think that the Howard government here is right on mandatory detention and deportation of illegal immigrants, the ambiguities about their own status is what creates delays. If you have tighter border control then quotas of legal immigration should be raised.


Thank you for being the only person who understood the intent of my post.
 
It's not that I (or anyone) misunderstood the intent of your post. But what you suggested (as you did allow) is for the most part already in place, and banning visas for people who want to come here for legal and valid reasons is like taking away everyone's cars because some people drive like arseholes.

There is a huge misperception that illegals are "stealing" public benefits because governments (federal, state, and local) actually allow it, which is not actually true. Illegals gain public benefits in one of two ways (or a combination of both):

1.) They use forged documents (passports, Social Security cards, driver's licenses, and others); or

2.) They are parents to children born in the States, who are thus citizens and thus eligible for benefits.

Aliens in the second category may not even realize that being the parents of American children has no effect on their personal status, in fact.

As well, aliens planning to come to the States legally must prove (to varying extents) that some sort of support awaits them upon their arrival, or that they will be self-supporting through adequate savings or a job already offered in the States. If neither of those conditions apply, an alien must be sponsored financially as well by the person petitioning for them in the States (e.g. a child, a sibling, a spouse/fiance, a parent, etc.) This evidence of support is required when the alien applies for the visa at their particular American Embassy.
 
I'm a Latin American, so I wish you would just let people immigrate. People risk so much looking for the American Dream and do you think it's for greed? It's desperation. Things are so terrible for most people down here they would rather risk it in the border than stay any longer here.
 
BrownEyedBoy said:
I'm a Latin American, so I wish you would just let people immigrate. People risk so much looking for the American Dream and do you think it's for greed? It's desperation. Things are so terrible for most people down here they would rather risk it in the border than stay any longer here.



okay, i want to preface this by saying that i'm entirely sympathetic to people who march across the American Southwest desert in order to find a better life for their children. i am also sort of laissez-faire about immigration, and truthfully i haven't given it much thought since i'm from New England, and now live in DC.

however, and i mean this as a question, why should we keep our borders open because there are desperate people out there? how and why is it the average American's problem that some countries are poor, have terrible governments, etc. yes, you can argue that, at some level, all roads lead back to the US (and in some central american countries, you can make a pretty good case for that). however, why should your desperation be our problem? if one of the illegal immigrant Salvadorans who are constructing condos at the end of my block falls and breaks his back and goes to the hospital and doesn't have insurance, then someone has to eat that cost in a country where, what, 30m people who are citizens don't have health care? who's to say what situation is more desperate than the next?

and i mean this as a serious question, and i really don't have a terribly developed view on this, and i'm trying to play something of a Devil's Advocate here.

i am curious.

(i hope i don't regret posting this)
 
I'm for tighter immigration control, but also making it a bit easier for those want to LEGALLY immigrate to do so.

Since I've never lived near the Mexican border, my only experience with immigrant workers is from when I visit southern Florida. The workers I've seen there work terribly hard, TOO hard, picking fruit out in the sun all day everyday. I know people will argue that they're taking jobs from other citizens, but then I think of the type of people I know are unemployed, the people that live in my old neighborhood who spend their waking hours drinking or looking for a hit, raising hell, shouting at their kids, doing NOTHING productive. Sorry, I'd rather have honest, hard working, but illegal immigrant people picking the fruit.
 
Pax,

In my original post I said part of me wanted to put a moratorium on visas for three years. I then subsequently stated it was impractical and unfair, so the suggestion was withdrawn at that point because I never posited it seriously. I considered a moratorium (like I have any power to do anything) not to punish those coming to US for legitimate purposes, but to sit back, think our immigration policy over clearly, make sure it was designed more effectively, with proper funding and staffing and staffed with competent people who do not feel like they are hitting their head against a brick wall because we do not have a consistent policy. Something that would balance the needs of the legal immigrant and the country. I realized and noted then that such a moratorium would punish those seeking legal status through the proper channels.

I am aware of all the hurdles someone applying for a work visa, resident alien status and a student visa have to leap. I am aware of all the documentation required for an I-20. There was nothing in my post, nor in my intent, nor in the deepest, darkest recesses of my mind that wanted to make the process for applying for legal status any more stringent. What I requested for a student visa is the proper monitoring already in place which requires a physical address and notification to the proper agency when a student is no longer a student. That does not appear to be an undue burden on a legitimate student--ie, no longer a student, you lose student status. This does not stop anyone from applying for another type of legal status.

My request is purely legal status, a two year grace period (or an amnesty if you will) for anyone not convicted of a felony to apply for legal status without fear of deportation within that period.

I am also aware that it is fraud that allows those illegals who abuse the system to do so. However, I am not certain that certain states do not allow this. I will defer to you on that issue for now. While that is troubling and should be enforced more, that is not a priority issue to me because I do not know that more illegals abuse the system than do American citizens. Social services fraud is its own problem and the illegals who abuse the system are part of the larger picture, but not the whole picture.

Legal status would confer many of the protections illegals do not now have. I am all for a generous, legal immigration policy. There are plenty of productive illegals here I would give immediate legal status to, which should then protect them under minimum wage laws unless they choose to forfeit that right unlawfully which may affect minimum wage American workers.

But I also feel stricter penalties should be enforced for those who do not play the rules. I know the penalties are already strict. I just do not think there is sufficient enforcement. That's the government's fault and the agencies' fault and the employers who exploit the illegals fault. I'm not looking for punitive. I'm looking for some kind of balance. I think those applying for legal status are hurt by the influx of illegal immigrants and will keep being hurt until we get a handle on it and there does not appear to be an incentive to the government and to the agencies to get that handle.
 
u2bonogirl said:
Im totally heartless on this issue compared to where I stand on some things.
I come from a poor town on the Oregon coast that is full of illegal mexicans and they keep half the town from getting jobs because they dont work for much.
Theyve taken a good portion of the housing in a part of town and turned it into a gang zone.
And my family got kicked off the Oregon health plan while we had ZERO money because they said we had too high an income to get benefits anymore. We asked why, and they told us honestly (dunno if this was legal) that the influx of illegals have hurt the system
So Im biased. Totally.

Heartless indeed. Poor town, you must understand the abject poverty these people come from then, flee from, even. Yeah? Not likely.

I feel sorry for people with blind bias.
:hug:
 
u2bonogirl said:
Im totally heartless on this issue compared to where I stand on some things.
I come from a poor town on the Oregon coast that is full of illegal mexicans and they keep half the town from getting jobs because they dont work for much.
Theyve taken a good portion of the housing in a part of town and turned it into a gang zone.
And my family got kicked off the Oregon health plan while we had ZERO money because they said we had too high an income to get benefits anymore. We asked why, and they told us honestly (dunno if this was legal) that the influx of illegals have hurt the system
So Im biased. Totally.
:scratch: What is the colour of your skin again? As I thought, you are not a native of your country either.

I would recommend you read sulawesigirl4's post again and reconsider.
 
Have you ever wondered why these people immigrate?

I am an immigrant and am lucky enough to live in one of the more tolerant countries in the world. My parents didn't decide to move from one side of the planet to the other just on a whim and I would suggest most other people do not either. They moved because the life that we were living was no longer tolerable.

Perhaps, before castigating these people for taking jobs, costing money etc, etc we should look at why they get the jobs over other people (they might have a better work ethic and yes, that age old situation of being paid less money which in reality is not their fault. Most immigrants just want a job to prove themselves and are extremely grateful for the opportunity to live a more peaceful lifestyle. I know my family felt like this and still do).

Also, it's interesting to look from the point that if you have moved away from your home, doesn't that make you an "immigrant" in the new area that you live whether or not it is in a new country or a new state or just down the road, aren't you taking someone elses job etc. That argument becomes a bit of a farce really.

Most countries have signed a UN convention (sorry if that is not the correct terminology) that they will take immigrants who are "refugees". These people, are considered "illegals" and must prove their status (I am only speaking from a brief amount of knowledge of the Australian system) to be allowed to stay in their new country. Sometimes this can take years to sort out. Personally, I think it would be tragic to have to go through this situation for that amount of time and would have to think that they are doing so because going back is a worse outcome.

I totally agree with sulawesigirl4's post regarding the ease for which we, as westerners, can move around the earth perhaps we should do so with a little more gratitude and a little more compassion for those who can not. While there will always be people who are "terrorists" and are trying to enter the country, I would suggest that this would have to be an ineffective method compared with being handed a shitload of money to get on a plane and enter the country with all the right paraphenalia to be stamped by a customs officer.
 
I think the trouble is that most of the immigrants we visibly encounter here appear extremely lazy, leech off of the system, and tend to have a high crime rate. I think that's what tries a lot of patience here.

Melon
 
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