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Old 08-30-2005, 03:51 PM   #1
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Illegal Immigration: Where do you stand?

Without getting all Iraqi-wacky (please use any other thread for that), how does it make sense to leave the backdoor open to illegals in a post-9/11 world? It costs this country billions of dollars to feed, clothe, and treat illegal aliens who don't even belong here in the first place. This is a non-partisan issue, so why have both the right and the left ignored it?

Why oppose illegal immigration?
* In 2004 alone, THREE MILLION ILLEGALLS crossed the Mexican-American border.
* An estimated 1 in 5 illegals get caught.
* It's not just Mexican immigrants looking for jobs outside of their own borders. Terrorists may sneak into the country as well.
* 8,000 illegals enter the states every day of the year.
* There are already between 15,000,000 to 20,000,000 illegals living in the US.
* Illegals have been eating up welfare, medicaid, and emergency treatment, putting the US economy on a grill and forcing hospitals out of business, especially in border states.

On an annual federal level, illegal aliens cost US taxpayers...
$2.1 billion to lock them up in prisons.
$2.5 billion in Medicaid.
$2.2 billion in uninsured medical costs.
$1.4 billion in federal aid to schools.
$1.9 billion in food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches.

Why aren't we doing more to protect our borders?
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Old 08-30-2005, 03:58 PM   #2
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I think our borders are being almost completely ignored, and we're allowing them to get driver's licences. It makes no sense in a time like this when we have an administration bragging about being tough on terrorism
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Old 08-30-2005, 04:07 PM   #3
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Re: Illegal Immigration: Where do you stand?

Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe

It costs this country billions of dollars to feed, clothe, and treat illegal aliens who don't even belong here in the first place. This is a non-partisan issue, so why have both the right and the left ignored it?

* Illegals have been eating up welfare, medicaid, and emergency treatment, putting the US economy on a grill and forcing hospitals out of business, especially in border states.

On an annual federal level, illegal aliens cost US taxpayers...
$2.1 billion to lock them up in prisons.
$2.5 billion in Medicaid.
$2.2 billion in uninsured medical costs.
$1.4 billion in federal aid to schools.
$1.9 billion in food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches.



are you sure about these stats?
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Old 08-30-2005, 04:14 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
I think our borders are being almost completely ignored, and we're allowing them to get driver's licences. It makes no sense in a time like this when we have an administration bragging about being tough on terrorism
In my view, this issue is Bush's biggest weakness. It makes no sense to open his ears so wide to a man like Vicente Fox, who came up with the brilliant idea of selling off lengthly guides for illegals to cross the US border. As far as I'm concerned, protecting the border from illegals is half the battle when it comes to combating terrorism. Sure, we've taken a number of measures to protect America, but a free for all on the border will bring in more and more crime into the country, and furthermore, pinch the economy.
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Old 08-30-2005, 04:15 PM   #5
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Well, they give us $7+ billion a year in uncollected Social Security contributions.

Anyway, it's certainly symptomatic of a larger problem in this nation, and too many businesses profit off of illegal immigrants. That's particularly why Bush will never do a damn thing about it.

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Old 08-30-2005, 04:23 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
Sure, we've taken a number of measures to protect America, but a free for all on the border will bring in more and more crime into the country, and furthermore, pinch the economy.
I agree but searching babies because of their name and coming up with neat little colored warnings won't do shit? How much have we really changed our security? I mean secure borders I think would be a priority, but then again I'm no expert.
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Old 08-30-2005, 04:24 PM   #7
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Re: Re: Illegal Immigration: Where do you stand?

Quote:
Originally posted by deep
are you sure about these stats?
I didn't make them up...

http://cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
http://www.time.com/time/archive/pre...695827,00.html
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Old 08-30-2005, 05:32 PM   #8
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I dont think this problem is uniquely American, and frankly has little consequence of 9/11 unless you are going to take a paranoid slant that all immigrants want to blow up some civilians
Here, we've been dealing with this problem for a very long time. We get boatloads, rather than border crossings, naturally. I remember the outrage the international media spat out over Tampa and honestly, if one thing pisses me off, it's ignorance.

I'm split as there is this battle betwen the legal and logistical ramifications, and the humanitarian issues. Laws can be bent, but we, for example, can only do so much.
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Old 08-30-2005, 07:13 PM   #9
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Re: Illegal Immigration: Where do you stand?

Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
It costs this country?
What country?
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Old 08-30-2005, 09:19 PM   #10
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I love it.

Another American boo-hooing 'cause our country is so great that half the world wants to come here...

Oh yeah. Let's seal the borders.

Do you have any idea how difficult it would be to completely seal our borders? You remember the Berlin Wall? That's the kind of hardware it would take to really and truly keep out the 'undesirables'.

And we really want to live behind something like that. Oh yeah.
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Old 08-30-2005, 09:36 PM   #11
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Yeah, I'm with echo. I've never understood why we're so tight with our borders, either (moreso our U.S./Mexico one than our U.S./Canada border, it seems, too-correct me if I'm wrong about that, though)-we call ourselves the land of opportunity, and yet want borders restricted...eh ? I think we should just let any immigrants who want to come here do so. If they're good, hard-working citizens, they stay. If they start causing trouble, they get punished/sent back.

That probably sounds too simple, as people have mentioned this is a rather complex issue, but there's my bit about it right now.

Angela
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Old 08-30-2005, 09:54 PM   #12
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Why aren't we doing anything about it?

The Republicans won't do anything because illegal immigrants help large corporations, part of the Republican constituency.

The Democrats won't do anything about it because a) with few exceptions, there aren't many Democrats governing these southern states where most immigrants are and b) they don't want to seem like they are alienating the Hispanic population, since the Democrats right now are always on the defensive lately
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Old 08-30-2005, 10:21 PM   #13
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Well, we certainly lack a cohesive and effective immigration policy. We will never stop all illegal immigration; however, we can manage it more effectively.

1. Significant more border patrols. Anyone caught entering
the country illegally has any immediate medical needs tended
to and then is immediately deported.
2. Any company found to have hired illegal immigrants (or hired
a firm that they would have reasonable suspicion to believe
was lax in determining legal status) would be fined. If that
employee paid these immigrants below minimum wage, the
fine would be tripled. A second violation could lead to
criminal prosecution and/or suspension of any business
licenses along with a substantial fine.
3. Any child born on American soil would still be an American
citizen, but that would not confer legal status on the family.
4. Current illegal immigrants would have two years to apply for
legal status if they have not been convicted of a felony.
Should they not apply for legal status in that time period,
if caught, they will be deported. Background checks will
be performed.
5. Any illegal (or possibly any status less than naturalized citizen)
convicted of a felony will serve their sentence and then be
deported. If they are a resident alien, they may be stripped
of that status.
6. Anyone caught transporting illegal aliens will serve a minimum
of two years. Anyone whose transport of illegal aliens led to
the death or serious injury of those aliens and who is
convicted of such will spend a minimum of 5 years in prison
(personally, I would give them life.)
7. Illegal aliens will still be entitled to emergency medical care.
For anything other than emergency medical care, anyone not
covered by insurance will be required to show proof of legal
status. The hospital may still choose to treat the illegals,
but will receive no government reimbursement.
8. No one who does not have legal status will be eligible for
welfare or other social programs other than emergency, short-
term assistance. Application for such after the two year grace
period may lead to deportation.
9. Anyone with an expired visa no longer has legal status and
if they do not show proof of having applied for renewel will
be deported. Proof of that renewel will then be monitored.
10. Universities and other institutions that educate foreign
students shall be required to maintain current addresses on
the students and the students will be required to provide
current physical addresses to the schools. Failure to provide
current physical addresses should be reason to bar the student
from registration, which may invalidate the student visa.
Schools must then be required to notify appropriate parties
if a student graduates or leaves the school. Student visas are
ripe for abuse.

Many of these laws are already on the books. They just need to be enforced. Now does the government have the balls to do it?

All that being said, I recognize that very few Americans have earned the right to be US citizens. Most Americans were either born here or born of US citizens and that was the sole criterion. However, the prime role of the government is to protect its citizens right here.

I recognize that this does not stop all of the terrorist or social problems that may arise. We have plenty of legals, including American citizens, misusing the system. And the 9/11 hijackers were generally here under legal status or had applied for legal
status and we had Timothy McVeigh and the London subway bombers were British citizens.
(I remember that ironic government gaffe when several months after 9/11 , Mohammed Atta's visa was approved.)

All this will be probably be expensive, but considerably less expensive than Iraq.

America generally thrives on the influx of legal immigrants. And probably thrives on the production and other input of many of the illegal immigrants. But it's a balancing game. We've swerved over to a too lenient policy and need to swerve back some.
I'd like to give legal status to as many productive illegals as possible which is why I want the grace period.

Part of me thinks that perhaps for a three year period, we should ban all immigration and not issue any visas to anyone until we get all this settled, but that is impractical and probably unfair.
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Old 08-31-2005, 04:04 AM   #14
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Quote:
Part of me thinks that perhaps for a three year period, we should ban all immigration and not issue any visas to anyone until we get all this settled, but that is impractical and probably unfair. [/B]
Oh yeah, that would be grand. Punish innocent people that just want to come visit or study. Speaking for myself, as someone who has a boyfriend that has been going through the endless hoop-jumping that is already the procedure for getting a visa, I would have to disagree.

Do you have any idea how hard it is for someone who had the bad luck to be born in a poor country? They can't travel. They aren't free to go where they like. They're suspects everywhere and denied access to places that we would take for granted. Example.

My boyfriend and I will (hopefully) be flying to the States soon. In looking for tickets for this trip, we have to make sure that they don't involve any changing of airports or layovers where we have to go through customs. Why? Because there is no way in hell that he would be allowed into any European country even if it was just to change airports to catch a plane. I on the other hand don't even have to get a stamp in my passport. I just wave it at the officials and walk through without them giving me more than a glance.

All that to say, it is very easy to sit in a rich country and tsk tsk about "all those people" that want to come to your country. But keep in mind that there are two different standards and that all people are apparently NOT created equal. If you want to come visit my boyfriend's country, you can just show up and they'll stamp your passport at the airport. They won't treat you like a criminal.
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Old 08-31-2005, 05:27 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonosSaint
3. Any child born on American soil would still be an American
citizen, but that would not confer legal status on the family.
Ummmm...that's already true.

Quote:
8. No one who does not have legal status will be eligible for
welfare or other social programs other than emergency, short-
term assistance. Application for such after the two year grace
period may lead to deportation.


Also already true. Only American citizens (and in SOME cases, though not all, lawful permanent residents) are entitled to means-tested public benefits. Illegal immigrants receive public benefits most often because (a) they are using forged documents; or (b) their children are American citizens and thus eligible for public benefits.

Quote:
9. Anyone with an expired visa no longer has legal status and
if they do not show proof of having applied for renewel will
be deported. Proof of that renewel will then be monitored.


Already true. The trick is tracking down and monitoring visa overstays, which can be incredibly difficult, and generally, if a person staying illegally stays below the radar, so to speak, CIS looks the other way.

Quote:
Many of these laws are already on the books. They just need to be enforced. Now does the government have the balls to do it?


Balls? Try time and tax dollars. CIS is a bloated, inefficient, ridiculous bureau that wastes incredible amounts of time and money harassing people who want to come here legally while turning a blind eye to millions of illegals.

Quote:
Part of me thinks that perhaps for a three year period, we should ban all immigration and not issue any visas to anyone until we get all this settled, but that is impractical and probably unfair.


When you say this, I think of a man I met in a restaurant last year. He was Chinese and working as a sushi chef. He was in the country legally and was trying to bring his wife to the States (only lawful permanent residents and citizens can do that), and he hadn't seen his wife in two years.

Two years. Imagine not seeing your spouse in two years.

So you would deny a spousal visa to the wife of a man who came here legally and had a job?

This is the side of immigration people often forget about in the wake of problems with illegals...people who want to come here, totally legally, for the sake of family reunification. Or to study, like Sula's boyfriend.

An isolationist policy will not work.
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