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Old 09-01-2005, 08:48 AM   #31
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Originally posted by melon
I think the trouble is that most of the immigrants we visibly encounter here appear extremely lazy, leech off of the system, and tend to have a high crime rate. I think that's what tries a lot of patience here.
I live in a city with a pretty large immigrant population and I've never seen any of those problems. Of course it might simply be that the US and UK are different in that respect, but I've seen more people who were born in this country behave in the manner you described than people who have come to this country as refugees or immigrants.

Edited to add: I think perhaps part of the problem is that people allow one experience to shape their entire peception of an issue. If people encounter one immigrant who was caught in criminal activity they assume all immigrants are criminals but if they hear of one British person committing a crime they assume that individual was a criminal not that all British people are criminals.
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Old 09-01-2005, 08:52 AM   #32
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Originally posted by melon
I think the trouble is that most of the immigrants we visibly encounter here appear extremely lazy, leech off of the system, and tend to have a high crime rate. I think that's what tries a lot of patience here.


i live in a very immigrant heavy city, and neighborhood especially, and i cannot agree -- most of the people in my neighborhood are Salvadorans, and they tend to be very hard working, have reasonably strong families, church going, and unassuming.

the adjectives you use might be more aptly applied to the generations of urban poor who have been ghettoized, marginalized, and (in DC at least) disenfranchised in the city since Reconstruction.
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Old 09-01-2005, 09:50 AM   #33
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Originally posted by melon
I think the trouble is that most of the immigrants we visibly encounter here appear extremely lazy, leech off of the system, and tend to have a high crime rate. I think that's what tries a lot of patience here.

Melon
I agree (that people think that), however in my experience, the immigrants are the hardest workers who will do the most shit jobs for the longest hours at the smallest pay.

My dad's younger brother and best friend both run drywall companies and both companies are in danger because there's so many Mexican immigrants that will do the same job faster for less pay. They're both actually trying to hire these immigrants because they work so well. Typically, they all live together, get to work together and will work fast all day, only to stop once for a sandwich and a coke. The lazy ones aren't the immigrants, but the people who've never understood the value of a long day of hard work, or what it's like to have to send all your money back home to keep your relatives alive, not even knowing if they ARE still alive.
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Old 09-01-2005, 09:53 AM   #34
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That's all the more reason why we need to crack down on illegal immigration. Not all of us are contented to live and work and get paid the salaries of third-world countries. And who wins? The business owner, who gets to rake in the excessive profits.

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Old 09-01-2005, 10:00 AM   #35
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Originally posted by melon
That's all the more reason why we need to crack down on illegal immigration. Not all of us are contented to live and work and get paid the salaries of third-world countries. And who wins? The business owner, who gets to rake in the excessive profits.

Melon
I agree, however, in the example I posted above, the business owners are only trying to hire these guys b/c if they don't, someone else will and they'll go out of business. They've been perfectly happy paying legal workers the fair wage for the past 30 years and are pretty much being forced into the whole cycle. I'm sure there are plenty who'd love to take advantage of this though.
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Old 09-01-2005, 10:09 AM   #36
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Originally posted by melon
That's all the more reason why we need to crack down on illegal immigration. Not all of us are contented to live and work and get paid the salaries of third-world countries. And who wins? The business owner, who gets to rake in the excessive profits.
Preventing illegal immigration isn't the only solution though. How about making employment regulations stricter so that either immigrants are paid fairly (the option I prefer) or business owners who employ people who don't have the right to work in the US are penalised (which, obviously, does have the negative side-effect of leaving many immigrants without a job).
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Old 09-01-2005, 01:24 PM   #37
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Have you ever wondered why these people immigrate?

I am an immigrant and am lucky enough to live in one of the more tolerant countries in the world. My parents didn't decide to move from one side of the planet to the other just on a whim and I would suggest most other people do not either. They moved because the life that we were living was no longer tolerable.

Perhaps, before castigating these people for taking jobs, costing money etc, etc we should look at why they get the jobs over other people (they might have a better work ethic and yes, that age old situation of being paid less money which in reality is not their fault. Most immigrants just want a job to prove themselves and are extremely grateful for the opportunity to live a more peaceful lifestyle. I know my family felt like this and still do).

Also, it's interesting to look from the point that if you have moved away from your home, doesn't that make you an "immigrant" in the new area that you live whether or not it is in a new country or a new state or just down the road, aren't you taking someone elses job etc. That argument becomes a bit of a farce really.

Most countries have signed a UN convention (sorry if that is not the correct terminology) that they will take immigrants who are "refugees". These people, are considered "illegals" and must prove their status (I am only speaking from a brief amount of knowledge of the Australian system) to be allowed to stay in their new country. Sometimes this can take years to sort out. Personally, I think it would be tragic to have to go through this situation for that amount of time and would have to think that they are doing so because going back is a worse outcome.

I totally agree with sulawesigirl4's post regarding the ease for which we, as westerners, can move around the earth perhaps we should do so with a little more gratitude and a little more compassion for those who can not. While there will always be people who are "terrorists" and are trying to enter the country, I would suggest that this would have to be an ineffective method compared with being handed a shitload of money to get on a plane and enter the country with all the right paraphenalia to be stamped by a customs officer.
A great post . That's the thing, too, seeing it from the point of view of someone else.

In the towns I lived in back in Iowa, there was a high Mexican population. Some of the people were in gangs and caused trouble and whatnot, yes. But there were also some very nice, hard-working people there, too. It just seems odd to, as pointed out in this thread, start stereotyping all immigrants as being nothing more than troublemakers. There's good and bad in all immigrants.

Also, this country came into being in part because of immigrants. Why, then, are some so resistant to allow more? And once again, I've understood that the Mexican border is guarded more tightly than the Canadian one-if this is true, why? Wouldn't Canadians be immigrants, too? Aren't there likely some Canadians who come here illegally?

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Old 09-01-2005, 04:13 PM   #38
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


I live in a city with a pretty large immigrant population and I've never seen any of those problems. Of course it might simply be that the US and UK are different in that respect, but I've seen more people who were born in this country behave in the manner you described than people who have come to this country as refugees or immigrants.

Edited to add: I think perhaps part of the problem is that people allow one experience to shape their entire peception of an issue. If people encounter one immigrant who was caught in criminal activity they assume all immigrants are criminals but if they hear of one British person committing a crime they assume that individual was a criminal not that all British people are criminals.
We do in fact have it differently, because in the UK, you only have some half a million illegals residing (from what I can remember in an article I read from the BBC's website recently). In the USA, that's how many enter illegally within two months. As far as some of the "Oh great, a nationalist American is whining about being the best country in the world, blah blah blah..." comments, I'm not opposed to LEGAL immigration. And when did I approach the issue as if - like it was posted without much train of thought - that I think that most/all of the illegals are bad people? Ahh, the PC police are after me.

Back to the topic, we have no idea who some of these illegals may be. Is it really far-fetched to believe that one in a million could be a throat-cutting terrorist? Here's my solution to the problem that is frankly misunderstood by the rest of the world: Increase border patrolling and take the illegals back to whichever country they came from. Secondly, if you're worried about overcrowded prisons, wouldn't you like to know that almost 30% of the prisoners are illegal aliens? Take them home. This solves numerous problems that are not being addressed by this administration. With that said, I'm sure a lot of the biased posters looking to Bush-bash will jump on this issue as if Clinton did anything about it. We haven't done hardly anything about this issue in 25 years. Reagan addressed it, but backpedalled when he should have stepped forward.
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Old 09-01-2005, 04:27 PM   #39
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Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel
Also, this country came into being in part because of immigrants. Why, then, are some so resistant to allow more? And once again, I've understood that the Mexican border is guarded more tightly than the Canadian one-if this is true, why? Wouldn't Canadians be immigrants, too? Aren't there likely some Canadians who come here illegally?
Although Canada's border doesn't illegally import the majority of illegal drugs into the US, I am opposed to illegal immigration whether it's the Canadian Border or the Mexican border. The Canadian government has a different view, which is fine for them, after all they are much less concerned about the survival of Western civilization. They've invited many for immigration, and in my view, they haven't done enough to secure their country in the process. With their ultratolerance for anyone to settle foot in their doors (and receive as much social services as they want), I don't think it's a bad idea for us to protect that side of the border either. No double-standard.
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Old 09-01-2005, 04:30 PM   #40
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Although Canada's border doesn't illegally import the majority of illegal drugs into the US, I am opposed to illegal immigration whether it's the Canadian Border or the Mexican border. The Canadian government has a different view, which is fine for them, after all they are much less concerned about the survival of Western civilization. They've invited many for immigration, and in my view, they haven't done enough to secure their country in the process. With their ultratolerance for anyone to settle foot in their doors (and receive as much social services as they want), I don't think it's a bad idea for us to protect that side of the border either. No double-standard.
WTF!

Less concerned about "the survival of Western civilization"? What the hell does that mean?

And BTW, thanks for exporting your illegal guns to our country. We appreciate it.
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Old 09-01-2005, 04:32 PM   #41
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
Preventing illegal immigration isn't the only solution though. How about making employment regulations stricter so that either immigrants are paid fairly (the option I prefer)
I agree with this much - but no legislation necessary but compliance with minimum wage laws and other regulations that already exist. We don't need more legislation/regulations, we just have to enforce the laws that have already been legislated for us.
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Old 09-01-2005, 04:33 PM   #42
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WTF!

Less concerned about "the survival of Western civilization"? What the hell does that mean?

And BTW, thanks for exporting your illegal guns to our country. We appreciate it.
I was afraid this would be misinterpreted. Let me put it in another way: less concerned about terrorist threats. No need to blow a gasket.
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Old 09-02-2005, 04:30 AM   #43
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If two Americans are competing for a job, and one is wiling to work 15 more hours a week, for $1 less pay per hour... We know who is going to get hired. The fact that they're illegal immigrants puts a different spin on it, but it isn't all harm and costs to the nation.

Illegal immigrants, yes, they provide a marginal cost saving individually, and yeah they give large corporations like WalMart a huge edge because of the large numbers involved. However, what incentive do they have to hire Americans? I mean, nationalism aside, if your stockholders (Americans) and stakeholders (also Americans) only care about the bottom line at the end of the month - that is to say, profit - then your job as a corporation is to make the most money you can to keep the investors and the people who buy your products happy. Saving money means you can do two things; put that money purely into the profit column - or you can invest it by offering loss-leader pricing sales, you can afford marginal discounts on top of the fact your costs of goods sold is low because of the quantity of inventory purchased in the first place, ultimately resulting in cheaper products for your consumers. Cheaper products encourage spending. Spending equates to stronger economy. You need to spend money to make money.

Yes, they're illegal immigrants. Yes, they're taking jobs from Americans - Americans who aren't willing to work 55 hours a week for $5. Working like that might violate workers rights laws, I'm not sure what those laws amount to in the US, but I recall there was some move by the president to force companies to pay illegal immigrants the same wages as Amiercans (which would eliminate the incentive to hire the immigrants) and there was a lot of hubbub about how the borders should be shut down and how nobody wanted illegal immigrants in the first place. Well, that's all well and good, but if you're going to run a contemporary capitalist system you can't shy away from competition, ethical or not. I mean, exploiting workers is nothing new. And after all, it is a national expectation for these companies to be profitable. If WalMart, Target, etc, weren't providing you with bargains, weren't providing you with bulk goods, would you shop there? Now, maybe the stuff that's on sale is something you don't want this week - but maybe next week it is. Someone is buying this stuff, even if it's not you. Thats what business is all about. You can't tell them to not be profitable, that would compromise all the structures on which the Western world is based. Yes, they should be expected to follow the law - but since, like the borders, it is nearly impossible to police every single business' activities (most illegal immigrants are paid under the table, right, so this won't come out in tax reports without thourough dredging), what is to be done?

Americans could still be winning those jobs, even if the companies ignored more laws by continuing to hire illegal workers, by vying for the position: working harder for less, and working illegally as an American. Right, you shouldn't have to stoop so low as to waive your workers rights and get paid under the table just to have a job instead of being unemployed. Of course, maybe you'd prefer to be unemployed and just complain about the illegal immigrants taking your jobs because you're unwilling to do what they are. Those immigrants and their desperation for work and living conditions that aren't total crap, they should just sod off because even if they won't respect the laws of the US and that doesn't mean you should sully yourself by breaking the law - after all, if you live by the law, the country owes you something, right? I'm not so sure that it does. Even if there were no illegal immigrants, your country couldn't guaruntee you a job. They cannot force someone to hire you. And after all, if you're an American working illegally (that is to say, ignoring your workers rights and workign for less than minimum wage, or for more hours per week than is permitted) you aren't going to be the one thrown in jail: that's your employers responsibility.

It is an expectation that all people find work, yes, but is it a right, that all Americans will have jobs? I don't think so. With all the outsourcing of labour that occurs in the US in the name of profits there are a lot of American jobs that aren't being done in America to begin with. Mostly blue collar stuff. It leaves most of the mundane physical work that has to be done on site and can't be done elsewhere: road work, waiting tables, cashier roles, loading and unloading trucks, etc. If the sum total of your life after being born in the US, with all the amenities that the greatest country in the world can provide, is working in WalMart as a cashier, or mopping up the crapper at Denny's, I mean no disrespect when I say you don't deserve the jobs that people are taking from you. Theres a certain level of expectation here not that you'll find a job but that you'll be competent enough as a human being to excell above the lowest of the blue collar levels and work a real job, you aren't going to be given anything if you don't work for it, and checking out soccer moms at WalMart should not be a long-term career plan. If you're a tradesperson, a skilled labourer, that's fine, that is real honest work, and I make no attack on those people. If you're a cashier, or a cook at McDonalds, and that is your life... I'm not sure I'd say it's noble and honourable work, but at the very least it is work and worthy of some measure of respect. The thing is, I find it hard to sympathize with people who have settled and aren't willing to try for anything else and all the while aren't happy with it. If you're happy with what you've got, wonderful, thats incredibly admirable and rare regardless of where it is you are and what it is you do. I'll add that if you are indeed happy doing what you do, then you are probably willing to do it for less money if it meant keeping your job instead of going elsewhere to work one you hated. However, it's not always easy to find a job, but it sure is easy to give up and blame someone else because you can't be bothered to do what other people will. I have far less sympathy for people who are chronic whiners with a lazy streak a mile wide, and just like the illegal immigrants who are perceived as harmful criminals take the publics eye, I believe it is only the chronic whiners amongst the Americans who have the publics ear and are making that problem seem far larger than it is.
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Old 09-02-2005, 03:56 PM   #44
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Well, they're criminals... maybe we should treat them as such.
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Old 09-03-2005, 10:08 PM   #45
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Well, they're criminals... maybe we should treat them as such.
That's really kind. And compassionate. I also prefer to forget that many ilegals are running from lives so dire, we have absolutely no concept of what they experience. These are ordinary people who are hungry, scared and simply want to either die, or get a small sliver of a better life for themselves and their children. Do you understand that desperation? Of course, not all illegals are in this situation. Some are simply marching along looking for any easy way out of their garden variety poverty or circumstance. Actually, we could spend all day writing up scenarios on particular examples. Truth is, they're still good and bad, still just like the rest of us. What bothers me is this haste to treat the first lot I described as criminals when they are desperate ordinary people who were forced by their own miserable environments to break the law.

Where is the goddamned compassion from some of you people?

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