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Old 08-31-2005, 05:47 AM   #16
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Yes; tighter controls on illegal immigration and a streamlined process for legal immigration.

I think that the Howard government here is right on mandatory detention and deportation of illegal immigrants, the ambiguities about their own status is what creates delays. If you have tighter border control then quotas of legal immigration should be raised.
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Old 08-31-2005, 07:31 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by pax
An isolationist policy will not work.
Quite right, for as long as there's a division of wealth in this world as well as war and famine etc, you're going to have migration. The financial and moral costs of putting up walls around your country (or like in the EU, almost around an entire continent) are too high. The real assholes usually find a way around them, while the people in need get shut out.
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Old 08-31-2005, 08:33 AM   #18
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Re: Illegal Immigration: Where do you stand?

Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
Without getting all Iraqi-wacky (please use any other thread for that), how does it make sense to leave the backdoor open to illegals in a post-9/11 world? It costs this country billions of dollars to feed, clothe, and treat illegal aliens who don't even belong here in the first place. This is a non-partisan issue, so why have both the right and the left ignored it?

Why oppose illegal immigration?
* In 2004 alone, THREE MILLION ILLEGALLS crossed the Mexican-American border.
* An estimated 1 in 5 illegals get caught.
* It's not just Mexican immigrants looking for jobs outside of their own borders. Terrorists may sneak into the country as well.
* 8,000 illegals enter the states every day of the year.
* There are already between 15,000,000 to 20,000,000 illegals living in the US.
* Illegals have been eating up welfare, medicaid, and emergency treatment, putting the US economy on a grill and forcing hospitals out of business, especially in border states.

On an annual federal level, illegal aliens cost US taxpayers...
$2.1 billion to lock them up in prisons.
$2.5 billion in Medicaid.
$2.2 billion in uninsured medical costs.
$1.4 billion in federal aid to schools.
$1.9 billion in food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches.

Why aren't we doing more to protect our borders?


will you be stepping up to pick our strawberries, perform our contract labor, and mop my bathrooms at work?

(sorry for the regeneration of stereotypes, but that is what many illegals are able to do -- the menial jobs that 99.99% of Americans or Australians would never think of doing themselves)
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Old 08-31-2005, 08:41 AM   #19
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Im totally heartless on this issue compared to where I stand on some things.
I come from a poor town on the Oregon coast that is full of illegal mexicans and they keep half the town from getting jobs because they dont work for much.
Theyve taken a good portion of the housing in a part of town and turned it into a gang zone.
And my family got kicked off the Oregon health plan while we had ZERO money because they said we had too high an income to get benefits anymore. We asked why, and they told us honestly (dunno if this was legal) that the influx of illegals have hurt the system
So Im biased. Totally.
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Old 08-31-2005, 09:30 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Yes; tighter controls on illegal immigration and a streamlined process for legal immigration.

I think that the Howard government here is right on mandatory detention and deportation of illegal immigrants, the ambiguities about their own status is what creates delays. If you have tighter border control then quotas of legal immigration should be raised.

Thank you for being the only person who understood the intent of my post.
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Old 08-31-2005, 10:30 AM   #21
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It's not that I (or anyone) misunderstood the intent of your post. But what you suggested (as you did allow) is for the most part already in place, and banning visas for people who want to come here for legal and valid reasons is like taking away everyone's cars because some people drive like arseholes.

There is a huge misperception that illegals are "stealing" public benefits because governments (federal, state, and local) actually allow it, which is not actually true. Illegals gain public benefits in one of two ways (or a combination of both):

1.) They use forged documents (passports, Social Security cards, driver's licenses, and others); or

2.) They are parents to children born in the States, who are thus citizens and thus eligible for benefits.

Aliens in the second category may not even realize that being the parents of American children has no effect on their personal status, in fact.

As well, aliens planning to come to the States legally must prove (to varying extents) that some sort of support awaits them upon their arrival, or that they will be self-supporting through adequate savings or a job already offered in the States. If neither of those conditions apply, an alien must be sponsored financially as well by the person petitioning for them in the States (e.g. a child, a sibling, a spouse/fiance, a parent, etc.) This evidence of support is required when the alien applies for the visa at their particular American Embassy.
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Old 08-31-2005, 11:23 AM   #22
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I'm a Latin American, so I wish you would just let people immigrate. People risk so much looking for the American Dream and do you think it's for greed? It's desperation. Things are so terrible for most people down here they would rather risk it in the border than stay any longer here.
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Old 08-31-2005, 12:58 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by BrownEyedBoy
I'm a Latin American, so I wish you would just let people immigrate. People risk so much looking for the American Dream and do you think it's for greed? It's desperation. Things are so terrible for most people down here they would rather risk it in the border than stay any longer here.


okay, i want to preface this by saying that i'm entirely sympathetic to people who march across the American Southwest desert in order to find a better life for their children. i am also sort of laissez-faire about immigration, and truthfully i haven't given it much thought since i'm from New England, and now live in DC.

however, and i mean this as a question, why should we keep our borders open because there are desperate people out there? how and why is it the average American's problem that some countries are poor, have terrible governments, etc. yes, you can argue that, at some level, all roads lead back to the US (and in some central american countries, you can make a pretty good case for that). however, why should your desperation be our problem? if one of the illegal immigrant Salvadorans who are constructing condos at the end of my block falls and breaks his back and goes to the hospital and doesn't have insurance, then someone has to eat that cost in a country where, what, 30m people who are citizens don't have health care? who's to say what situation is more desperate than the next?

and i mean this as a serious question, and i really don't have a terribly developed view on this, and i'm trying to play something of a Devil's Advocate here.

i am curious.

(i hope i don't regret posting this)
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Old 08-31-2005, 03:40 PM   #24
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I'm for tighter immigration control, but also making it a bit easier for those want to LEGALLY immigrate to do so.

Since I've never lived near the Mexican border, my only experience with immigrant workers is from when I visit southern Florida. The workers I've seen there work terribly hard, TOO hard, picking fruit out in the sun all day everyday. I know people will argue that they're taking jobs from other citizens, but then I think of the type of people I know are unemployed, the people that live in my old neighborhood who spend their waking hours drinking or looking for a hit, raising hell, shouting at their kids, doing NOTHING productive. Sorry, I'd rather have honest, hard working, but illegal immigrant people picking the fruit.
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Old 08-31-2005, 03:42 PM   #25
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Pax,

In my original post I said part of me wanted to put a moratorium on visas for three years. I then subsequently stated it was impractical and unfair, so the suggestion was withdrawn at that point because I never posited it seriously. I considered a moratorium (like I have any power to do anything) not to punish those coming to US for legitimate purposes, but to sit back, think our immigration policy over clearly, make sure it was designed more effectively, with proper funding and staffing and staffed with competent people who do not feel like they are hitting their head against a brick wall because we do not have a consistent policy. Something that would balance the needs of the legal immigrant and the country. I realized and noted then that such a moratorium would punish those seeking legal status through the proper channels.

I am aware of all the hurdles someone applying for a work visa, resident alien status and a student visa have to leap. I am aware of all the documentation required for an I-20. There was nothing in my post, nor in my intent, nor in the deepest, darkest recesses of my mind that wanted to make the process for applying for legal status any more stringent. What I requested for a student visa is the proper monitoring already in place which requires a physical address and notification to the proper agency when a student is no longer a student. That does not appear to be an undue burden on a legitimate student--ie, no longer a student, you lose student status. This does not stop anyone from applying for another type of legal status.

My request is purely legal status, a two year grace period (or an amnesty if you will) for anyone not convicted of a felony to apply for legal status without fear of deportation within that period.

I am also aware that it is fraud that allows those illegals who abuse the system to do so. However, I am not certain that certain states do not allow this. I will defer to you on that issue for now. While that is troubling and should be enforced more, that is not a priority issue to me because I do not know that more illegals abuse the system than do American citizens. Social services fraud is its own problem and the illegals who abuse the system are part of the larger picture, but not the whole picture.

Legal status would confer many of the protections illegals do not now have. I am all for a generous, legal immigration policy. There are plenty of productive illegals here I would give immediate legal status to, which should then protect them under minimum wage laws unless they choose to forfeit that right unlawfully which may affect minimum wage American workers.

But I also feel stricter penalties should be enforced for those who do not play the rules. I know the penalties are already strict. I just do not think there is sufficient enforcement. That's the government's fault and the agencies' fault and the employers who exploit the illegals fault. I'm not looking for punitive. I'm looking for some kind of balance. I think those applying for legal status are hurt by the influx of illegal immigrants and will keep being hurt until we get a handle on it and there does not appear to be an incentive to the government and to the agencies to get that handle.
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Old 08-31-2005, 08:01 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by u2bonogirl
Im totally heartless on this issue compared to where I stand on some things.
I come from a poor town on the Oregon coast that is full of illegal mexicans and they keep half the town from getting jobs because they dont work for much.
Theyve taken a good portion of the housing in a part of town and turned it into a gang zone.
And my family got kicked off the Oregon health plan while we had ZERO money because they said we had too high an income to get benefits anymore. We asked why, and they told us honestly (dunno if this was legal) that the influx of illegals have hurt the system
So Im biased. Totally.
Heartless indeed. Poor town, you must understand the abject poverty these people come from then, flee from, even. Yeah? Not likely.

I feel sorry for people with blind bias.
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Old 08-31-2005, 08:59 PM   #27
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BonosSaint:

Points well taken.
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Old 09-01-2005, 05:57 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by u2bonogirl
Im totally heartless on this issue compared to where I stand on some things.
I come from a poor town on the Oregon coast that is full of illegal mexicans and they keep half the town from getting jobs because they dont work for much.
Theyve taken a good portion of the housing in a part of town and turned it into a gang zone.
And my family got kicked off the Oregon health plan while we had ZERO money because they said we had too high an income to get benefits anymore. We asked why, and they told us honestly (dunno if this was legal) that the influx of illegals have hurt the system
So Im biased. Totally.
What is the colour of your skin again? As I thought, you are not a native of your country either.

I would recommend you read sulawesigirl4's post again and reconsider.
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Old 09-01-2005, 08:26 AM   #29
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Have you ever wondered why these people immigrate?

I am an immigrant and am lucky enough to live in one of the more tolerant countries in the world. My parents didn't decide to move from one side of the planet to the other just on a whim and I would suggest most other people do not either. They moved because the life that we were living was no longer tolerable.

Perhaps, before castigating these people for taking jobs, costing money etc, etc we should look at why they get the jobs over other people (they might have a better work ethic and yes, that age old situation of being paid less money which in reality is not their fault. Most immigrants just want a job to prove themselves and are extremely grateful for the opportunity to live a more peaceful lifestyle. I know my family felt like this and still do).

Also, it's interesting to look from the point that if you have moved away from your home, doesn't that make you an "immigrant" in the new area that you live whether or not it is in a new country or a new state or just down the road, aren't you taking someone elses job etc. That argument becomes a bit of a farce really.

Most countries have signed a UN convention (sorry if that is not the correct terminology) that they will take immigrants who are "refugees". These people, are considered "illegals" and must prove their status (I am only speaking from a brief amount of knowledge of the Australian system) to be allowed to stay in their new country. Sometimes this can take years to sort out. Personally, I think it would be tragic to have to go through this situation for that amount of time and would have to think that they are doing so because going back is a worse outcome.

I totally agree with sulawesigirl4's post regarding the ease for which we, as westerners, can move around the earth perhaps we should do so with a little more gratitude and a little more compassion for those who can not. While there will always be people who are "terrorists" and are trying to enter the country, I would suggest that this would have to be an ineffective method compared with being handed a shitload of money to get on a plane and enter the country with all the right paraphenalia to be stamped by a customs officer.
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Old 09-01-2005, 08:37 AM   #30
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I think the trouble is that most of the immigrants we visibly encounter here appear extremely lazy, leech off of the system, and tend to have a high crime rate. I think that's what tries a lot of patience here.

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