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Old 10-04-2007, 09:17 AM   #106
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Originally posted by maycocksean


Yes, but it's been suggested in this thread that "liberals" don't care about border security or feel that we should have a policy of a completely open border.

Is that how you feel?
What would you do to secure the border? A fence? Landmines? Harsh language...?
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Old 10-04-2007, 09:17 AM   #107
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Originally posted by AEON


Should this apply to every soul in the world? If so, is it really America's responsibilitiy to relocate everyone here so we can give them free healthcare and education?

Oh good lord. Could you pleae quote the single person besides you who said we should relocate everyone.

Is this how you conduct discussions in real life as well? Jumping to conclusions, making up statistics, and not answering questions?
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Old 10-04-2007, 09:29 AM   #108
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


Should this apply to every soul in the world? If so, is it really America's responsibilitiy to relocate everyone here so we can give them free healthcare and education?

I think most people agree that everyone should have healthcare and education (the term 'free' is misleading...someone is going to pay).
No. I was speaking of people who want to live in this nation. I hate to burst the "rah-rah Go America" bubble that so many of us live in, but not everyone has a desire to live in the United States. Some people are perfectly content where they live. I believe their governments should work out healthcare according to what the people of that nation want and what the government feels would provide the most for its citizens. However, if someone is here already, be it legally or illegally, they should still be provided the healthcare benefits that should be the basic right of every citizen of this world. I realize there is no such thing as "free" healthcare. I do feel that if someone can't afford to pay for it, however, it is the government's responsibility. I posted this already in different words in the thread about Bush vetoing the healthcare bill for children; if this country can spend, spend, spend trillions of dollars for a war that destroys lives, they sure as hell better be able to come up with the money for healthcare that can save them.
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Old 10-04-2007, 09:30 AM   #109
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I wouldn't open the borders, because I'd want to have security - I don't want other nations' criminals coming in, and they need to be kept out. I think what I'd do is relax restrictions so that people would have an easier time entering legally, and tighten security so that the few folks who we deny entry to based on their criminal past are kept out.

Seriously, if they're not crooks let them in. No more making folks jump through hoops - if you have a clean criminal record and want to come in, come on in. The added benefit of that is the fat cat scumbags who threaten illegals to make them either work for pennies or do illegal activites would be out of business.

Oh, and yes to amnesty.
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Old 10-04-2007, 09:33 AM   #110
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Originally posted by CTU2fan
I wouldn't open the borders, because I'd want to have security - I don't want other nations' criminals coming in, and they need to be kept out. I think what I'd do is relax restrictions so that people would have an easier time entering legally, and tighten security so that the few folks who we deny entry to based on their criminal past are kept out.

Seriously, if they're not crooks let them in. No more making folks jump through hoops - if you have a clean criminal record and want to come in, come on in. The added benefit of that is the fat cat scumbags who threaten illegals to make them either work for pennies or do illegal activites would be out of business.

Oh, and yes to amnesty.
Your first paragraph is what I was saying, or at least trying to say in my response to sean's question. I really don't see what's so difficult for some people to understand about a position like this.
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Old 10-04-2007, 10:31 AM   #111
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


What would you do to secure the border? A fence? Landmines? Harsh language...?
Oooh, landmines! Great idea.

Seriously, if we were more relaxed but more meticulous in our immigration standards, we could probably ensure more safety because with more open borders (but still monitoring who crossed them) there would be fewer illegal ways of crossing and it would be easier to monitor illegal immigrants. I just thought of this argument so I'm not sure how valid it is, but I think it could work.

(I should probably pay attention in class now....nah)
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Old 10-04-2007, 11:42 AM   #112
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Originally posted by U2isthebest


No. I was speaking of people who want to live in this nation.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but you are basically saying that if anyone in the world wants to come here - they should be able to? And if they somehow land on our shore or walk across the desert - then they are entitled to government sponsored (translation: taxpayer funded) healthcare and education?

What if that is a billion people? Or more? How in the world could this be sustainable?
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Old 10-04-2007, 11:55 AM   #113
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


Please correct me if I'm wrong, but you are basically saying that if anyone in the world wants to come here - they should be able to? And if they somehow land on our shore or walk across the desert - then they are entitled to government sponsored (translation: taxpayer funded) healthcare and education?

What if that is a billion people? Or more? How in the world could this be sustainable?
The fact of the matter is, a billion people are not just going to start traipsing over the border. I'm not looking for hypothetical numbers that don't have real relevance to the issue. There's a difference between wanting to come here and actually coming. I probably should have made that clearer. Should we go out and start collecting people to bring them here? Absolutely not! Yet, if they are here legally or not, then, yes, I believe they should have the basic rights of healthcare and education; especially healthcare. These aren't American rights, they're human rights. I really don't care if my tax money is paying for Sally Lou Jones born and raised in West Texas' or Carlos Garcia migrant worker from Mexico's healthcare if either of them is in need of it. I could not respect myself I had an "Us four and no more " attitude of looking out for number 1 and my family and all the other red-blooded Americans. If you have different convictions, that's perfectly fine! I have mine too however, and every decision I make has to line up with them.
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Old 10-04-2007, 12:00 PM   #114
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Originally posted by AEON


(the term 'free' is misleading...someone is going to pay).
And the fact that you think you pay for it is absolutely hilarious...
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Old 10-04-2007, 01:37 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON
What if that is a billion people? Or more? How in the world could this be sustainable?
What if it's just one little kid who needs dental work? What if it's just one man who needs a flu shot? What if it's just one boy who needs to learn his times tables? What if it's just one girl who needs to learn to read? What if it's just one woman who needs an x-ray and a cast?

Why is your argument so general? Is it because real humans with real needs get in the way of your politics?


And by the way, your favorite president is fine with a billion unsustainable people. He consistently cuts funding for family planning programs around the world. And yes, the two issues are very closely related.
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Old 10-04-2007, 04:25 PM   #116
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Originally posted by AEON


(the term 'free' is misleading...someone is going to pay).
yes we are paying in 2007

for problems that should have been addressed in the 70s and 80s


and if Americans think we can continue to consume something like 35-40 per cent of the world’s resources
while we are 5 per cent of the population

because why?

a. we are God's chosen people

b. we can, f*ck every one else - we got the biggest guns

c. we are just entitled, evolution or manifest destiny just meant for it to be that way, someone has to be on top


Well, you are right, sooner or later, nothing is free or should be taken at others expense

there will be a reconciliation
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Old 10-04-2007, 04:30 PM   #117
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Originally posted by deep


yes we are paying in 2007

for problems that should have been addressed in the 70s and 80s


and if Americans think we can continue to consume something like 35-40 per cent of the world’s resources
while we are 5 per cent of the population

because why?

a. we are God's chosen people

b. we can, f*ck every one else - we got the biggest guns

c. we are just entitled, evolution or manifest destiny just meant for it to be that way, someone has to be on top


Well, you are right, sooner or later, nothing is free or should be taken at others expense

there will be a reconciliation
So I guess you are powering your computer with a hamster-run generator.
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Old 10-04-2007, 04:40 PM   #118
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So I guess you are powering your computer with a hamster-run generator.
So it's Deep's fault that no one in government will look into alternative resources?
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Old 10-04-2007, 04:43 PM   #119
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I am not opposed to paying for what we are consuming

I think Bono said something like the best way to fight terror is to give them a better standard of living

I do believe we have been taking advantage of other people and countries to sustain our high standard

and yes the governments of those countries are culpable, too


but we negotiate trade agreements so you and I can buy a DVD player at Wal-Mart for $49

and the workers that assemble that machine live in substandard conditions with exposure to chemicals


there was a time when honest people had to confront the evils of slavery even though they got the benefit of slave labor

there was a time when honest people had to confront the evils of child labor even though they got the benefit

Is this the time when honest people will confront the evils of exploiting third world workers even though we get the benefit?
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Old 10-04-2007, 04:52 PM   #120
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Originally posted by deep


there was a time when honest people had to confront the evils of slavery even though they got the benefit of slave labor

there was a time when honest people had to confront the evils of child labor even though they got the benefit

Is this the time when honest people will confront the evils of exploiting third world workers even though we get the benefit?
I'm not opposed to reforming the way third world workers are treated. But I don't think that having every one of them move to America is the answer.
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