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Old 10-04-2007, 07:15 PM   #136
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Originally posted by AEON


Wait. Let me understand something. The reason so many Mexicans are coming here is because they can get a job "under the table" - meaning a buck or two an hour.

If they become 'legalized' - then they will need to be paid minimum wage. If they are paid minimum wage - then they become too expensive to hire.

If cheap Mexican labor is as essential to the US economy as you claim - then you are 1) advocating slave (or very, very cheap) labor and 2) using the same argument the South made leading up to the Civil War.
What do you not get? I didn't say it was essential, in fact look at the book I suggested, I said it's a big part. Your produce, your clothes, the restaurants you eat at, etc...

And it's not just Mexicans, not sure why you are so stuck on that...

So while you are bitching about paying their healthcare, they are breaking their backs so your produce can be cheap. You kick them all out everything around you goes up in price; construction, food, etc... So think about that when you are bitching.

I'm not advocating anything, I'm showing you the facts, you will be paying more if you kick them out. So they whole, I'm paying for their healthcare argument is bullshit, that's the only point I'm making.
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Old 10-04-2007, 07:21 PM   #137
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
And it's not just Mexicans, not sure why you are so stuck on that...
Indeed.
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Old 10-04-2007, 07:33 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

So while you are bitching about paying their healthcare, they are breaking their backs so your produce can be cheap. You kick them all out everything around you goes up in price; construction, food, etc... So think about that when you are bitching.

I'm not advocating anything, I'm showing you the facts, you will be paying more if you kick them out. So they whole, I'm paying for their healthcare argument is bullshit, that's the only point I'm making.
You can't show facts without providing a single statistic.

How much does their healthcare cost? How much does it cost to educate an illegal immigrant's child in the public school system? And how do these costs compare to a pound of oranges in the market, or a new roof on your garage?
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Old 10-04-2007, 07:46 PM   #139
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Originally posted by Bluer White


How much does their healthcare cost? How much does it cost to educate an illegal immigrant's child in the public school system?
I don't know, he's the one bitching, I thought maybe he should provide me with some costs, but facts really aren't his thing.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bluer White

And how do these costs compare to a pound of oranges in the market, or a new roof on your garage?
Well it's not just a pound of oranges. The lettuce, tomatoes, etc that goes into the hamburger go up, so hamburgers go up, then all your cooks and bus boys have to get paid minimum wage so your $5 hamburger goes up to 8 or even 10 dollars. Factory workers wages go up, orchard wages go up, construction labor goes up, etc etc.

A contractor here in TX, who works for one of the largest constuction firms in the Nation said residential costs would probably go up 12%, and commercial cost may go up to even 20%. So your 5 million dollar building will now cost 6 million...
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Old 10-04-2007, 07:55 PM   #140
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

I don't know, he's the one bitching, I thought maybe he should provide me with some costs, but facts really aren't his thing.
Honestly I don't think Aeon cares how much it costs to tighten up the border.

You seemed to be the one beating the drum on how expensive it would be if illegal immigration dried up, and made some pretty sweeping macro-economic claims (not facts).
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Old 10-04-2007, 07:57 PM   #141
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Originally posted by Bluer White


Honestly I don't think Aeon cares how much it costs to tighten up the border.

You seemed to be the one beating the drum on how expensive it would be if illegal immigration dried up, and made some pretty sweeping macro-economic claims (not facts).
But a big part of his reasoning was an economic one...

Have you not read his posts?
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Old 10-04-2007, 08:15 PM   #142
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


But a big part of his reasoning was an economic one...
After the murder spree was discredited anyway.
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Old 10-04-2007, 08:16 PM   #143
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of course...
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Old 10-04-2007, 08:17 PM   #144
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Originally posted by Bluer White


You can't show facts without providing a single statistic.

How much does their healthcare cost? How much does it cost to educate an illegal immigrant's child in the public school system?
These are important points that need to be addressed on a national level, especially when immigration is a federal lapse and the states have to pick up most of these costs.

But one could easlity ask what's the price of not providing these services since the people who need tham are indeed already here.
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Old 10-04-2007, 08:27 PM   #145
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


But a big part of his reasoning was an economic one...

Have you not read his posts?
I've read both Aeon's posts and your posts. You are taking the opposite side of his argument, correct?

Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
I'm showing you the facts, you will be paying more if you kick them out. So they whole, I'm paying for their healthcare argument is bullshit, that's the only point I'm making.
Can you, or Aeon, provide a citation on this?

And Bonovox, if you were right that illegals provide a net economic benefit, it must impact your position on illegal immigration in general. Are you against it, or willing to look the other way based on your own economic argument???
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Old 10-04-2007, 08:33 PM   #146
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Originally posted by indra


Do you really think everyone in the world wants to come here?
If you offered a one way free plane ticket to any man, woman, or child in the world to America - with the additional promise of government sponsored healthcare and education - I would imagine the number of immigrants would be in the billions (I'm guessing 2 to 5 billion).
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Old 10-04-2007, 08:38 PM   #147
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The Estimated Cost of Illegal Immigration


Illegal alien workers may increase profits for employers, but they are costly to the American taxpayer. Most illegal aliens have low educational attainment, few skills, and they work for low wages, often in the underground economy where they pay no taxes on their earnings. Since about three million illegal aliens gained legal status in the amnesty of 1986, the flow of illegal immigration has increased, and today that population is estimated at 9-11 million illegal alien residents in the country. The former Immigration and Naturalization Service estimated that the illegal alien population was increasing by about half a million aliens per year in 2000.

The Huddle Study
Because the number of illegal aliens can only be estimated, similarly the fiscal cost (government budget outlays) for those aliens can only be estimated. Dr. Donald Huddle, a Rice University economics professor, published a systematic analysis of those costs as of 1996 (see table below). The study also estimated the tax payments of those same aliens.

At that time, the illegal alien population was estimated to be about five million persons. The estimated fiscal cost of those illegal aliens to the federal, state and local governments was about $33 billion. This impact was partially offset by an estimated $12.6 billion in taxes paid to the federal, state and local governments, resulting in a net cost to the American taxpayer of about $20 billion every year. This estimate did not include indirect costs that result from unemployment payments to Americans who lost their jobs to illegal aliens willing to work for lower wages. Nor did it include lost tax collections from those American workers who became unemployed. The study estimated those indirect costs from illegal immigration at an additional $4.3 billion annually.

During the years since that estimate, the illegal alien population is estimated to have roughly doubled, so the estimated fiscal costs also will have at least doubled. Furthermore, the passage of time is accompanied by inflation in the costs of services, e.g., school budgets continue to climb. Therefore, what was estimated to be a cost to the American taxpayer of $33 billion in 1996 today would be at least $70 billion. Similarly, tax collections would have increased — sales taxes at least — so that the net expense to the taxpayer from illegal immigration would currently be at least $45 billion. The indirect fiscal costs would have also increased, especially during a period of already high unemployment, to perhaps and additional $10 billion annually.

1996 Costs Table from the Huddle Study 1

Programs
(billions)

Public Education K-12 $5.85

Public Higher Education $0.71

ESL and Bilingual Education $1.22

Food Stamps $0.85

AFDC $0.50

Housing $0.61

Social Security $3.61

Earned Income Tax Credit $0.68

Medicaid $3.12

Medicare A and B $0.58

Criminal Justice and Corrections $0.76

Local Government $5.00

Other Programs $9.25

Total Costs
$32.74

Less Taxes Paid
$12.59

Net Costs of Direct Services
$20.16

Displacement Costs
$4.28

All Net Costs
$24.44 (BILLION)





Other More Recent Estimates
Other estimates have been done on components of the cost of illegal immigration. For example, FAIR estimated in 2003 that the cost of K-12 education for illegal alien children was at least $7.4 billion annually (see Breaking the Piggybank). This would be less than double the about $5.9 billion estimate above, but would be of the same order of magnitude. FAIR’s 2004 report on the medical expenses incurred because of illegal immigration (see The Sinking Lifeboat) shows uncompensated costs in excess of one billion dollars.

The cost of incarceration of illegal aliens in state prisons has also risen rapidly. In fiscal year ’02, the Department of Justice’s State Criminal Alien Assistance Program (SCAAP) distributed $550 million to the states to help defray their expenses, but this was estimated to cover only about one fifth of their outlays. Between FY'99 and FY'02, alien detention increased by 45 percent (from about 69,300 inmate years to over 100,300 inmate years), and that trend is continuing. These expenses do not include the costs of illegal aliens incarcerated in federal prisons, public safety expenditures, detention pending trial, expenses of trial proceedings, interpretation, public defenders, or the incarceration expenses of immigrants for minor offenses that do not meet the standards of the SCAPP reimbursement program. Therefore, it is clear that outlays for Criminal Justice and Corrections costs is today much greater than double the 1996 estimate.

The Net National Costs of Immigration: Fiscal Effects of Welfare Restorations to Legal Immigrants, Donald Huddle, Rice University, 1997.
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Old 10-04-2007, 08:39 PM   #148
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


If you offered a one way free plane ticket to any man, woman, or child in the world to America - with the additional promise of government sponsored healthcare and education - I would imagine the number of immigrants would be in the billions (I'm guessing 2 to 5 billion).
You seem to assume that the majority of this planet has no regard for their family, their friends, their professions, homes, countries, language, and culture. I'm assuming you're not an immigrant and as such have no concept of what leaving really entails.
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Old 10-04-2007, 08:42 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON
If you offered a one way free plane ticket to any man, woman, or child in the world to America - with the additional promise of government sponsored healthcare and education - I would imagine the number of immigrants would be in the billions (I'm guessing 2 to 5 billion).
7 or 8 years ago - yes, I'd agree, but not any more.

Not in a week where the dollar is plummetting and where the US property market has been revealed to be in an even worse condition than even the more pessimistic observers thought (in some areas, at least. The US property market is so huge that some areas will always be doing ok at any given moment in time).

http://www.treasure-coast.us/weeklyupdate09-23-07


Not that I take any satisfaction from this. I actually think it's appalling.

I think it's appalling what Bushco has done to the US economy.

One other point I'd make is that just about the only thing that can save the dollar, and the US property market, is letting in much more immigrants - particularly in southern states like Florida that have been so badly hit by the come-down from the property bubble. So it's kind of ironic to see Aeon, as a committed advocate of all things American, being so sceptical regarding the benefits (at least economic) of immigration to the US economy.
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Old 10-04-2007, 08:44 PM   #150
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Originally posted by martha


These are important points that need to be addressed on a national level, especially when immigration is a federal lapse and the states have to pick up most of these costs.

But one could easily ask what's the price of not providing these services since the people who need tham are indeed already here.
I agree completely. Hospitals and schools can't turn away anyone, and they shouldn't either for a bunch of reasons. And I don't think any illegal worker who is otherwise law abiding should be hunted down and booted out Tancredo-style.

However, some people want to tackle the problem of *new* illegals coming across the border....before every provision is made for the ones already here.
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