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Old 01-26-2005, 11:02 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by ILuvLarryMullen


This is reasonable to me (though I am for national health care), but to deny them health insurance all together (as what you said sounded like) or to fire them (as in the case of the article) is not.
I'm sorry if I was unclear, but I didn't mean they should be denied altogether. I meant that either they pay a higher amount to their company insurance or get dropped and have to go and get it on their own.

I'm totally against firing people because of their health issues, but I do believe companies can set limits on the health level their employees must be at in order to attain healthcare coverage.
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Old 01-27-2005, 06:04 AM   #17
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Everyone is at some kind of risk for health problems, choices or not.
This is just some nice cover for discrimination.
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Old 01-27-2005, 06:33 AM   #18
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What will be next. This is like a facsism or how you say. It could be the people who drink alcohol next, or who make love without the condom, or who eat chocolate too much or who do not exercise in the company gym with the company teacher of gym for at least 30 minuets a day or the one who does not eat the company salad at the lunch time.

Or the one who won't take enough vacation, or the one who has too many vacations. Or the one who watches too much television,or the one who ridies a motorbicycle or the one who rollerskates or skateboards or she that likes to linedance or he that likes to use a parachute. All of these could be bad for the health.

This is scary of what is happenign to people's free.

America used to be land of free. Now it is land of bloody lawyers with no morals and who kiss the money as they put people in the metaforical chains.
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Old 01-27-2005, 07:00 AM   #19
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Did you know 2/3 of the world's lawyers are in America?

True fact.
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Old 01-27-2005, 09:05 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
Everyone is at some kind of risk for health problems, choices or not.
This is just some nice cover for discrimination.
It is not discrimination.

Smoking (1) is a personal choice and (2) has costs that affect more than just the individual.
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Old 01-27-2005, 09:59 AM   #21
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two facts:

(1) tobacco is legal.
(2) there is no proof that smoking impairs most people's ability to perform their jobs well on a day-to-day basis (unless we're talking about athletes or astronauts or some other physically taxing profession).

perhaps smokers should be paying higher health insurance premiums, seeing that they regularly engage in high-risk behaviour that is most certainly detrimental to their health, but there's no way they should be denied employment simply because they smoke.
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Old 01-27-2005, 10:12 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


It is not discrimination.

Smoking (1) is a personal choice and (2) has costs that affect more than just the individual.
Exactly! Some people are getting a little overdramatic about this. Smoking is a personal CHOICE and employers should be able to deny them company rated health care because of it--but firing them altogether is simply wrong.
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Old 01-27-2005, 10:13 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
Everyone is at some kind of risk for health problems, choices or not.
This is just some nice cover for discrimination.
This thread is about SMOKING! You know nothing about the way the health insurance industry works if you think that healthy people are paying the same amount as people in higher risk categories.
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Old 01-27-2005, 10:20 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


It is not discrimination.

Smoking (1) is a personal choice and (2) has costs that affect more than just the individual.
So is overeating or eating unhealthy, and those who engage in extreme sports on the weekend but I don't see anything being done about these individuals.

Between a young person who smokes and a young person who's mountain biking every weekend who's the higher risk? The one mountain biking. You have much better chance at taking a fall and breaking several bones in your body than having any effects from smoking at age 28.
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Old 01-27-2005, 11:01 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Between a young person who smokes and a young person who's mountain biking every weekend who's the higher risk? The one mountain biking. You have much better chance at taking a fall and breaking several bones in your body than having any effects from smoking at age 28.
Sorry, but I don't agree with the conclusion here.

Every puff of a cigarette causes some damage, to the individual and to those around the individual. The damage is cumulative and lasting.

With mountain biking, you have positives (in the form of exercise) and occasional risks.
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Old 01-27-2005, 11:07 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Sorry, but I don't agree with the conclusion here.

Every puff of a cigarette causes some damage, to the individual and to those around the individual. The damage is cumulative and lasting.

With mountain biking, you have positives (in the form of exercise) and occasional risks.
What I'm saying is that with a 28 year old employee the risk is much higher with the one who's putting his life on the line everyweekend do some extreme sport than it is with the smoker. But there's no compensation for this difference. Why not?

If we're going to make special compensation for smokers then maybe we just need to make them for everyone. Rate everyone individually and charge them according to lifestyle.

Why just smokers? Why not the obese? Why not the old? Why not those that lead very risky lifestyles outside of work?
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Old 01-27-2005, 11:13 AM   #27
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They ARE also targeting overweight people

A Michigan health care company that fired four employees for smoking is also targeting fat.

Howard Weyers, the founder of Weyco Inc., said he wants to tell fat workers to lose weight or else, Reuters reported.

Weyers brought in weight experts to speak with employees, according to Reuters. The company also offers employees a $35 monthly incentive for joining a health club and $65 for meeting fitness goals.

But the company isn't planning to fire employees for unhealthy lifestyle choices, according to a Weyco news release.

"Anyone concerned about limiting employers' rights to specify terms of employment should know that federal law protects people with conditions like obesity, alcoholism and AIDS. But there's no right to indulge in tobacco," the news release said.

Four Weyco employees were fired after the company enacted a new policy this month, allowing workers to be fired if they smoke, even if the smoking takes place after hours or at home.

The four employees were fired for refusing to take a test to determine whether they smoke. Weyers said the company doesn't want to pay the higher health care costs associated with smoking.

An official of the company -- which administers health benefits -- estimated that 18 to 20 of its 200 employees were smokers when the policy was first announced in 2003. As many as 14 of them quit smoking before the policy went into effect.

The company's Web site states:

Weyco Inc. is a non-smoking company that strongly supports its employees in living healthy lifestyles
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Old 01-27-2005, 11:16 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


So is overeating or eating unhealthy, and those who engage in extreme sports on the weekend but I don't see anything being done about these individuals.

Between a young person who smokes and a young person who's mountain biking every weekend who's the higher risk? The one mountain biking. You have much better chance at taking a fall and breaking several bones in your body than having any effects from smoking at age 28.
There are some things that are unmeasurable, such as the extreme sports. Morbid obesity on the other hand is something that can be measured and most often change w/ lifestyle change or a physicians help. The reason I say "morbid obesity" is because I wouldn't classify regular "obese"--there isn't a decent way to measure whether or not a lot of people are obese. For example, I'm someone who works out daily, eats correctly all that--there isn't a whole lot of fat on me--but I still weigh about 200 pounds and I'm six feet. According to these "obesity scales," I'm overweight even though it wouldn't be possible for me to get down to the "healthy" weight of 175.

As for the biking..If someone gets injured, that's an accident. If someone get sick from smoking, that's 100% preventable. Also, if you look at the total amount it costs to treat people in extreme sports compared to people sick from smoking complications, I think we'd see just how much smoking is costing our society.

Besides, often times health insurance companies will deny people coverage already if they are in a high risk job, just like homeowners insurance goes up for many companies if a family decides to buy a trampoline. Healthcare is a business, and businesses will always deny the bad investment.
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Old 01-27-2005, 12:59 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by ImOuttaControl


There are some things that are unmeasurable, such as the extreme sports. Morbid obesity on the other hand is something that can be measured and most often change w/ lifestyle change or a physicians help. The reason I say "morbid obesity" is because I wouldn't classify regular "obese"--there isn't a decent way to measure whether or not a lot of people are obese. For example, I'm someone who works out daily, eats correctly all that--there isn't a whole lot of fat on me--but I still weigh about 200 pounds and I'm six feet. According to these "obesity scales," I'm overweight even though it wouldn't be possible for me to get down to the "healthy" weight of 175.

As for the biking..If someone gets injured, that's an accident. If someone get sick from smoking, that's 100% preventable. Also, if you look at the total amount it costs to treat people in extreme sports compared to people sick from smoking complications, I think we'd see just how much smoking is costing our society.

Besides, often times health insurance companies will deny people coverage already if they are in a high risk job, just like homeowners insurance goes up for many companies if a family decides to buy a trampoline. Healthcare is a business, and businesses will always deny the bad investment.
So then are you for charging more for the morbidly obese?
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Old 01-27-2005, 01:05 PM   #30
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1) Health care is not a privilege. It's a right. This is why it should be nationalized, because private insurers aren't interested in the health and well-being of people. They're just interested in a profitable fiscal quarter. Well, fuck 'em, that's what I say. Besides, Dubya thinks our unemployment figures don't count the self-employed. All the more reason for needing national health care, especially if our economy is shifting to contract/freelance labor.

2) Tobacco should be banned. We ban other substances for being only a fraction of its danger. Tobacco is highly addictive and kills people. Now how is that different from any myriad of drugs (i.e., Vioxx) that are banned on a regular basis?

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