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Old 02-16-2003, 09:56 AM   #16
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Originally posted by follower
martha and others,

But I think that if him and his pairs like Mr. Blair were really worried about terrorism and interested in helping Iraqi people to get rid of the evil dictator that is Saddam Hussein, your CIA would know what to do. Something along the lines they did in Latin America in the 60īs and 70īs would do the trick. The funny thing is...most of the time they helped the wrong guys.

People have suffered enough in Iraq, I see reports about mothers and children dying there everyday because of UN embargo.

Why a war to destroy their country this way? It must be for another reason, like Ace Rimmer said, maybe cheap and abundant oil, and for that you must control the area, more than just killing evil Saddam.

Al Qaeda and the brutal terrorist attack they perpetraded to your country in 2001 seems more like an excuse. Thatīs the opinion of millions outside US boarders, believe me.

Very well said,follower!
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Old 02-16-2003, 11:14 AM   #17
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But I think that if him and his pairs like Mr. Blair were really worried about terrorism and interested in helping Iraqi people to get rid of the evil dictator that is Saddam Hussein, your CIA would know what to do.
Do you have any understanding of Saddam's Security system? Do you have an understanding of the clan system that exists in Iraq? Assasinating this man, is not as easy as you would imply.

Let's start with his SON being in charge of his security. Let's start with the 40 people that have been personally selected from his clan. Let's look at the fact that their own family memebers would be killed if any attempt was even suspected.

Yep, it's that easy. You think that the US would NOT do this if it were possible?

Quote:
Originally posted by follower
People have suffered enough in Iraq, I see reports about mothers and children dying there everyday because of UN embargo.
OK....The Evil United States won't assassinate him and you do not want sanctions. How about looking at facts instead of pointing the finger at the US for everything.

Iraqs defence spending rises to 5 Billion a year to 2 Billion a year in 1999. Saddam uses 2.5 Billion a year to build 50 monuments to honor Saddam. Wow, he cares about his people. Let's blame the sanctions!!!!!

Saddam has continuously distrubuted humanitarian aid, not where it was most needed. He has given it to the areas of the country where people are loyal to him. Entire groups of people have been DENIED basic human needs by "SADDAM" while other groups have been kept fat and happy. In some cases, HOSPITALS have been closed in areas where people are not supportive of Saddam and the equiptment moved to cities where Saddam has recieved the most support.

The United Nations reported that TIKRIT, SAMARA, and Bagdhad are privelaged cities. Member sof the Military and the Ba'ath party also benefit. I am sure the 40 personal body gaurds who come from these places are going to risk their families preferntial treatment.

Since the GULF WAR:

*Saddams wealth has increased to $6 Billion.
*He has built 50 new palaces.
*Used pumping equiptment to build lavish waterfalls and fountains while there are areas of the country without water.
*UNSCOM inspectors found stores of medicines in wharehouses being kept from the public.
*Since 1999, the Oil for food program has in fact reduced child mortality rate to below the numbers Before the GULF WAR.
*Medicine that Iraq gets is being put into wharehouses and not distributed. Estimates in 1999 are that only 48% of the medicine the United Nations has forced Iraq to buy make it to the people.
*Baby Formula is smuggled out of the country at a profit.


Iraq claims to have increased from 1987-1997 from 16.5 to 22 million. This is an incredibly high growth rate. Not very believable numbers. However, his own numbers demonstrate a high growth rate that is consistent with the growth rate of the past 30 years.

If you want to blame the sanctions you can. The sanctions were designed with the mistaken belief that Saddam would have been removed from power by now and the sanctions lifted. I blame the fact that this man has used the sanctions to help those who are friendly to him and hurt those that have opposed him.

I would like to point out that the total Iraqi military casualties were 30,000 in the Gulf War with 5,000 Civilian casualities. I have used the high end estimates for these numbers.

I believe that 35,000 casualties in a WAR are much more humane than watching 225,000 Casulaties due to this man's continuous oppression of his people. Which is what INNACTION has done.

If you are going to blame the UN/US for the suffering in Iraq, at least give us one shread of evidence that it is their fault.



Quote:
Originally posted by follower
Why a war to destroy their country this way? It must be for another reason, like Ace Rimmer said, maybe cheap and abundant oil, and for that you must control the area, more than just killing evil Saddam. Al Qaeda and the brutal terrorist attack they perpetraded to your country in 2001 seems more like an excuse. Thatīs the opinion of millions outside US boarders, believe me.
Oh the evidence is so clearly there that this is what we want. Same old arguments from ten years ago. Shall we list the nations who have benefitted by the past 12 years. Let's start with Russia, Syria, Jordan, Turkey......Shall we have a lesson in the Black market trade that the UN has allowed to continue, as sanctions have deteriorated?

It may be an opinion, but it is 100% not based on any fact that I have seen you or any other person post on these boards. If you are going to make such a god awful statement, that the United States is eager to kill and destroy a country for OIL, please demosntrate it with some tangible shread of evidence.

There is clearly an abundance of evidence that this man has done more to hurt his population than the US>
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Old 02-16-2003, 12:53 PM   #18
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You know Dreadsox, itīs funny that you didnīt quote what I said about CIA helping the wrong guys, and I say that based on what I have learnt and have experienced, being from South America, knowing what happened here not a long time ago.

With that said, I never, ever said anything like "the Evil United States", you definitely got it all wrong. United States of America is nothing more than a country, and countries are formed by human beings, with all its diversity. Like many, I believe that human beings are intrinsical good, so that explains to me why many US citizens, you included, want to help Iraqi people to get rid of Saddam, and that is a good thing. But donīt be so naive to try to convince me and many others, including some of your own, that helping that people is all that the Bush administration wants. Please, youīre underestimating me on doing so. Iīm a 42 years-old and I consider myself a well-informed person. Some greedy bastards would do what they want, regardless of their nationality, I have seen that happen all the time in many scales. Itīs not your fault, itīs not my fault. All we, that live in democracies, can do is making better choices, politically speaking. I donīt like what I have read on the news lately. In fact I didnīt start this thread, but somebody else with the same doubts, and fears. I am against this war, any war, because again war is not the answer. Itīs a pity that a blessed nation like US and its people have been so damaged for misguided decisions for so long, concerning foreign affairs.
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Old 02-16-2003, 01:16 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox


There is clearly an abundance of evidence that this man has done more to hurt his population than the US>
How does any of what you said justify the United States risking a nuclear war? If these are all internal, domestic problems, how does that justify American casualties?

If we follow your logic, then a European-led invasion of the US is justified, looking at our leader leading the planet into a war with dire consequences, leading his nation into economic ruin while his cronies get rich, letting the poor of his nation get poorer and sicker, while the wealthy few get richer.


The Europeans and South Americans and Asians and Africans have every right to be pissed off and scared. The 800 pound gorilla is going to war no matter what, and this could be huge.

Bush is using his "concern" (and yours) as an excuse to vindicate his daddy. I hope the both of you are willing to answer to everyone on the planet when this thing spirals out of anybody's control.
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Old 02-16-2003, 01:43 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by martha

How does any of what you said justify the United States risking a nuclear war? If these are all internal, domestic problems, how does that justify American casualties?
Hi Martha. The sanctions were put in place 12 years ago. He has violated them. The hope was that through hard sanctions, he would be gone by now. Instead, the world has allowed sanctions to break down. He increases his wealth, and the wealth of his supporters. He continues to develop illegal weapons. He continues to violate UN resolutions and cease fire agreements.

Nuclear War? All I have read is that we are going to use them if WMD's are used against us.

Follower's statement implied that the UN sanctions were the root cause of the suffering of Iraqi's. My point is, it is not the root cause of the suffering. If we do not want WAR.....then there must be an alternative to WAR. Based on what I am reading, we are EVIL if we go to war, and we are EVIL if we support sanctions.

Which is it? What is the solution?


Quote:
Originally posted by martha

If we follow your logic, then a European-led invasion of the US is justified, looking at our leader leading the planet into a war with dire consequences, leading his nation into economic ruin while his cronies get rich, letting the poor of his nation get poorer and sicker, while the wealthy few get richer.
Has he done this YET? Has he worked through the UN? Are they attempting to draft another resolution to define what compliance looks like so this nonsense can stop?

As for the rest of what you write.........If you are saying that Bush is guilty of closing hospitals in cities that did not support him....If you are saying that he has denied medicine to people in areas of the country that did not vote for him....If you are saying that Capitalism is George Bush's fault....then I guess Europe should invade.

Do you have evidence that he has closed hospitals and shifted medical supplies to cities that supported him? If so I would like to see it.

Quote:
Originally posted by martha
Bush is using his "concern" (and yours) as an excuse to vindicate his daddy. I hope the both of you are willing to answer to everyone on the planet when this thing spirals out of anybody's control.
I have been very open and honest about my beliefs. I have repeatedly said the President has not made his case. I have repeatedly said that I fear us acting without the UN. I also feel that the UN and the World is ignoring the facts.

That does not mean, I should sit here and watch people post things that are not true, about sanctions and about the reasons we are in the situation we are in with Iraq.

Your comments about vindicating Daddy are off base. There are multiple examples of Bush I officials speaking out in the past few months against a War with Iraq. Scowcroft, Schwartzkoff, and Powell, have all voiced concerns. After 9/11, it is well documented that GW put Rumsfeld and others in their place taking Iraq off the table, when they were all urging him to go after Iraq. If he was so eager to go after Iraq, he would have then.

Peace
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Old 02-16-2003, 02:07 PM   #21
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Dreadsox - I'm assuming you don't want the sanctions lifted, then? How are they good for anyone right now? The Iraqi people blame their poverty on the sanctions, and it doesn't matter if that is the cause or not. They are ultimately the ones who we will have to fight. They do not see the US as a liberating force, they see them as invaders of their homes, and regardless of our intentions will try to stop us. They think the best thing we can do for their country is to lift the sanctions, creating more trade, and get them a little more money so they can shift their focus from where their next meal is coming from to overthrowing Saddam. A people with no food does not have the strength to ignite political change.

Of course, this is all second-hand reports from people who have been to Iraq recently.
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Old 02-16-2003, 02:18 PM   #22
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Originally posted by Kristie
Dreadsox - I'm assuming you don't want the sanctions lifted, then? How are they good for anyone right now? The Iraqi people blame their poverty on the sanctions, and it doesn't matter if that is the cause or not. They are ultimately the ones who we will have to fight. They do not see the US as a liberating force, they see them as invaders of their homes, and regardless of our intentions will try to stop us. They think the best thing we can do for their country is to lift the sanctions, creating more trade, and get them a little more money so they can shift their focus from where their next meal is coming from to overthrowing Saddam. A people with no food does not have the strength to ignite political change.

Of course, this is all second-hand reports from people who have been to Iraq recently.
Kristie,

I do NOT want sanctions lifted. I want them stregnthened. I want them enforced. I want the UN to distribute it's own aid to Iraq.

Now, if you think that lifting sanctions is going to help the people he is already not helping then I would like to know what this man has done in the past, that makes you think, he will allow these oppressed people to benefit from the sanctions being lifted.

He has historically gone out of his way to oppress these people, long before the sanctions.

My theory, is this. If the UN and the Arab nations had stuck with the sanctions, enforced them, and made sure that black market trqading was not going on coupled with President BUSH #1 and President CLINTON actually supporting rebel factions instead of paying it LIP service, this whole thing would have been over.

Instead, we had congress pass a resolution in 1988 supporting the overthrow of Saddam, with not a thing to show for it.

PEACE
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Old 02-16-2003, 02:22 PM   #23
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I think sanctions are worthless. Saddam's son, Uday, loves the sanctions. He's made millions off of the black market trade. Saddam and his Republican Guard don't seem to be going hungry either. That's really all that matters to keeping Saddam in power.

I almost think we have exhausted all avenues with Saddam...except the one we know for sure will get rid of him.



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Old 02-16-2003, 04:18 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox:
Follower's statement implied that the UN sanctions were the root cause of the suffering of Iraqi's. My point is, it is not the root cause of the suffering. If we do not want WAR.....then there must be an alternative to WAR. Based on what I am reading, we are EVIL if we go to war, and we are EVIL if we support sanctions.
Dreadsox,

First, I didnīt intend to say that the UN embargo is the root cause of the suffering of Iraqi people, it must exist any others, historic and economic causes that we donīt even know. I could only talk about the reasons for poverty and sufffering of my own people, to be honest. If that was what I implied, I apologise for my lack of knowledge. But surely the embargo hasnīt help them to get rid of Saddam. As for the alternatives to war, they have been discussed in another thread, very interesting by the way, started by yourself, and I already said there what I think about it.

Second, the only opportunity I used the word EVIL I was refering to Saddan Hussein. It seems that you didnīt read my post right.
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Old 02-16-2003, 04:28 PM   #25
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Second, the only opportunity I used the word EVIL I was refering to Saddan Hussein. It seems that you didnīt read my post right.
Peace...I never meant to imply you had used the word EVIL. Sorry.

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Old 02-16-2003, 05:47 PM   #26
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Originally posted by martha
My president may be one of the most powerful, but keep in mind that he's also one of the stupidest.

It doesn't look good for the planet.

My apologies to all of you. I didn't vote for the fucker.

My sentiments exactly.
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Old 02-16-2003, 06:04 PM   #27
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Now, if you think that lifting sanctions is going to help the people he is already not helping then I would like to know what this man has done in the past, that makes you think, he will allow these oppressed people to benefit from the sanctions being lifted.
I didn't say what I think, I said what THEY think, they being the Iraqi people.
Any effort we make to displace Saddam will not work without the support of the Iraqi people... and we do not have that support.

Strenghtening the sanctions will only work if somehow the UN/US puts a stop to black market trading, and how do you propose we do that? I don't mean that to come off as sarcastic, I just don't see how it's possible short of putting a giant wall around Iraq.
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Old 02-16-2003, 07:39 PM   #28
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Strenghtening the sanctions will only work if somehow the UN/US puts a stop to black market trading, and how do you propose we do that? I don't mean that to come off as sarcastic, I just don't see how it's possible short of putting a giant wall around Iraq.
You are not......and what you have written above is exactly where the current administration is on this topic. Sanctions have failed. Inspections have failed. And that is why we are heading towards war.

I would love to say we are living in a world in which sanctions will work.

Aside from the fact that Saddam has been selling UN Relief material on the market....let's see who is benefitting from his dealings.

Countries that have(are) violating the sanctions with Iraq:

Turkey
Jordan
Iran
UAE
Syria

Smuggling revenues for Iraq for 2001 were more than $2 Billion.

Saddam, ever the smart businessman, cut the price of oil produced in Iraq but added a surcharge, paid directly to the Iraqi governement. This is through the UN that he has made roughly $300 million. This is money that was supposed to go into the food for oil program, however, because it is a government surcharge, it goes to Iraqi government. The cut in price, hurt the people the program was designed to help, the Iraqi people.

Why didn't the UN get upset? The price cut. The world is making out buying the Iraqi oil cheaply. However, it is estimated, that the food for oil program that was put in place to help feed the starving Iraqi people lost $2 Billion Dollars in 2002.

Countries that have companies that have sent illegal imports to Iraq:

India (suspected items for chemical/nuclear program)
China( fiberoptic sommunications system for the Iraqi Military)

Nice job China. Aren't you supposed to help enforce the security council resolutions since you are a P-5 member?

Another resolution that was put in place was that the only planes that were allowed to fly into Iraq were humanitarian missions, or food deliveries. This Ban worked for 10 years. We can thank Russia, for being the first nation to violate this. All planes up until then, were subject to United Nations Inspections. Saddam refused to sell oil to any nation that obeyed this UN resolution.

Jordan, Yemen, Turkey, UAE, Algeria, Libia, Egypt, Lebanon, Greece, and France all decided, in violation of UN resolutions, that their commercial flights could fly into Iraq. Well, since no planes are being inspected before flying into Iraq, what do you think the chances are that nothing illegal is going into the country?

Guess who attempted to put an end to this when he came into office? George Bush. Yes, George Bush, tried when he took office, to get the sanctions put back into place. One probelm, all of these nations, profiting from illegal trade with Iraq and profitting from the food for oil program, have resisted since 2000 any attempts to change this.

Sorry to do that to you all. Give Bush credit, I know it hurts. It is true that for the first part of his administration, attempts were made to get the international community to fix this situation.

France, Russia, China....thank you for your help in supporting the resolutions.

I have almost convinced myself with this post, we should let our good allies Turkey and Jordan have fun with an unrestrained Saddam on the loose again.

Peace
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Old 02-17-2003, 12:51 AM   #29
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Dread, thank you changing your sig. That last one made me queasy every time I tried to avoid reading it.
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Old 02-17-2003, 12:54 AM   #30
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Anything for my "pic-a-pal"

That and my wife slapped me off the back of my bald spot after reading it.

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