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Old 08-31-2006, 06:36 PM   #61
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Old 08-31-2006, 06:39 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
And now, from the front page of [url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/30/AR2006083003177.html]The Washington Post:

Bush suggested last week that Democrats are promising voters to block additional money for continuing the war. Vice President Cheney this week said critics "claim retreat from Iraq would satisfy the appetite of the terrorists and get them to leave us alone." And Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, citing passivity toward Nazi Germany before World War II, said that "many have still not learned history’s lessons" and "believe that somehow vicious extremists can be appeased."
http://www.harpers.org/sb-the-bush-a...157058126.html

The Bush Administration and Godwin's Law

On the Internet, there is a dictum known as “Godwin's Law of Nazi Analogies,” coined in 1990 by a man named Mike Godwin. This law holds that “as an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.” Anyone who has spent time on political discussion boards can see that it's true; in any charged debate (abortion, Iraq, Israel, foreign policy), it's only a matter of time before someone compares his opponent to Hitler.

It's commonly understood that once Godwin's Law is invoked, a conversation is dead—and that any person who invokes Nazis almost definitely has failed to make his point. It's what philosopher Leo Strauss, the great inspiration to neoconservatives like Rumsfeld, called Reductio ad Hitlerum—the absurd smearing of any opposing line of thought as “Hitleresque.” He may not have been contributing to an online bulletin board, but Rumsfeld's invocation of Nazis and the G.O.P.'s sudden interest in fascism seem to be a perfect illustration of how deep this war's supporters must dig in order to justify a deadly folly.

...

Perhaps, with Godwin's Law in mind, you'll allow me to indulge in a little bit of Nazi-analogizing. The following comes from a post–World War II interview between Gustave Gilbert, a German-speaking intelligence officer and psychologist who was allowed by the Allies to speak with Nazi POWs, and Hermann Goering, the Nazi Reichsmarshall. Their conversation took place on April 18, 1946, during a break in the Nuremberg trials, and was recounted in Gilbert's book, Nuremberg Diary:

We got around to the subject of war again and I said that, contrary to his attitude, I did not think that the common people are very thankful for leaders who bring them war and destruction.

“Why, of course, the ‘people’ don't want war,” Goering shrugged. “Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship.”

“There is one difference,” I pointed out. “In a democracy the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars.”

“Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.”
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Old 08-31-2006, 07:23 PM   #63
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Old 08-31-2006, 07:47 PM   #64
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As the saying goes: nobody ever gave a war and nobody came.

Just some brief responses to various points.

1) Bravo for the transcript, Anitram, but try putting that on someplace other than YouTube and anyone under the age of 40 these days (and heck, a good deal else of the American public) would suffer brain overload before the end of the first paragraph: "too many big words and expressions." I applaud too, but today the American attention span is zilch. Like it or not, the GOP has the "sexy sound bite" thing down. Today, I don't think the average TV viewer would have been able to abide Oliver North--"that which I am"? Ridiculous.

2) ALL COMMENTS ABOUT THE POSSIBILTY OF DEMOCRATS WINNING BACK ANYTHING ARE TOTALLY IRRELEVANT. THEY ARE GOING TO LOSE BECAUSE NOBODY IS DOING A DAMNED THING ABOUT BUSH'S TIME-TESTED STRATEGY OF SYSTEMATIC MASS DISENFRANCHISEMENT OF VOTERS. THIS, AND THIS ALONE, IS WHY HE WON HIS ELECTIONS. (350,000 PEOPLE PREVENTED FROM VOTING IN OHIO ALONE, IN 2004. ) IF EVERYONE WHO WANTED TO VOTE HAD VOTED IN 2000 AND 2004, OR IF THE VOTING MACHINES HAD GIVEN A RECIPT, OR IF EVERYONE WHO REGISTERED TO VOTE HAD NOT BEEN PURGED FROM THE ROLLS, OR IF IF THERE HAD BEEN ENOUGH POLLING PLACES IN THE CITIES, BUSH WOULD NOT BE IN POWER. PERIOD.

THE FACT THAT EVEN PEOPLE LIKE IRVINE IN THIS FORUM HAVE FORGOTTEN THIS FACT, THAT THEY STILL SPEAK AS IF WE HAD A DEMOCRATIC SYSTEM OF VOTING IN THIS COUNTRY, THAT WE ARE STILL A DEMOCRACY (EVEN BY BUSH'S SCANTY DEFENITION OF A DEMOCRACY) WHERE WE STILL HAVE THE RIGHT TO VOTE, SHOWS HOW SUCCESSFULLY BRAINWASHED WE HAVE BECOME. EVEN HISTORIANS ROUTINELY USE TERMS LIKE "RE-LECTED" ....

I LURK IN THESE FORUMS FOR WEEKS AND WHY IS IT THAT I AM STILL THE ONLY ONE ***SCREAMING**** (AND YES, I AM 'SCREAMING' ) ABOUT THIS FACT????? THAT WE NO LONGER HAVE A FUNCTIONING DEMOCRACY? PEOPLE IN MEXICO AREN"T TAKING IT LYING DOWN--THEY"RE CAMPING IN THE STREETS! MAYBE FOX REALLY DID WIN HONESTLY BUT EVERYTHING ABOUT THE MEXICAN ELECTION LOOKS STRANGELY FAMILAR.....

(Go ahead and flame me for "shouting"--I dare you )

3) as regards "Hitler"....politicians in the Knesset routinely cal one another a Hitler. You can't say the Jews don't have guts..the worst thing an Isreali can say is to call a fellow Jew Hitler....lol
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Old 08-31-2006, 08:01 PM   #65
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oh..and BTW..speaking of the Bushies and Hotler--here's a nice little tidbit on Grandaddy Bush. What a bunch of hypocrites...the Ameeican public needs to be told about THIS little fact...

http://comebackalive.com/phpBB2/view...615104c16ad4d5
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Old 08-31-2006, 08:48 PM   #66
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I've asked this question before... what are the problems with voting by mail? Wouldn't this exorcise the specter of the voting machine and make tabulation easier, provided there was plenty of oversight? Educate me, please.
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Old 08-31-2006, 08:53 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally posted by najeena
I've asked this question before... what are the problems with voting by mail?

there would be a paper trail

there would be a way to count all votes

there would be little chance of manipulating
or suppressing voters


this will never happen
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Old 08-31-2006, 09:00 PM   #68
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Oh...and Najeena...I hope you kinow who this is who was "shouting" back there...do you remember my online addy? Hint: we were just talking about this on the phone the other day....and2) I am sending you a little envelope tomorrow So you DO lurk here!@ I'd better watch my mouth...LOL.

Danged link didn't work..it's an insanely long link...I'll try this again:

http://www.comebackalive.com/phpBB2/...615104c16ad4d5
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Old 08-31-2006, 09:04 PM   #69
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The link did not work...this is ridiculous, I just READ this article! Maybe it's the thread...

It's about Prescott Bush overseeing a company that did a litte back-end business with the third Reich...go to Comebackalive.com and click on top of the Page The Black Flag Cafe. Click on that link a 2nd time and it should take you to the Cafe (forum with a black font.) The Prescott Bush thread is currently right at the top. Interesting reading. I wish I could post it....

Oh, and BTW, I know this is a family site, but I just HAVE to share this with y'all. A man just walked by with a T-shirt that read, "Love Sucks, The Truth Swallows".

Sorry....malignantly brilliant....and SO true, sometimes....
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Old 08-31-2006, 09:30 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally posted by najeena
I've asked this question before... what are the problems with voting by mail? Wouldn't this exorcise the specter of the voting machine and make tabulation easier, provided there was plenty of oversight? Educate me, please.
Mail is pretty easy to tamper with, and identity theft is made even easier if photo identification isn't required.
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Old 08-31-2006, 09:30 PM   #71
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Old 08-31-2006, 09:41 PM   #72
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Our state is going to all-mail voting soon. Is tampering with the mail easier than messing with a voting machine? Really? How discouraging. Yes, I know who you are, Teta. There's no mistaking your style!
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Old 08-31-2006, 11:27 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Really?

How much training will the Iraqi army need to take care of an enemy that we can't hardly contain?

This isn't a plan it's a disaster. Poorly planned, prematurely executed fuck up, is what this war is...It's not a plan.

I wish there was a plan. I wish someone would come up with a plan, but honestly this adminstration is shooting down anyone that comes up with something other than stay the shit course, that nothing will ever get done.
The enemy has been contained enough that they have been unable to prevent the progress that has been made in the country over the past two years. In addition, a fully built Iraqi military will likely be many times more effective in this sort of a situation since they all speak the language and know the the customs and traditions to a degree that is hard even for the experienced foreigner to have.

Western society lives in a world of cell phones, fast food, the internet. When we want something now, were able to get it now and have no patience for waiting. Everything from the culture to the work environment expects fast, immediate results. Well, welcome to nation building 101, where everything from effective counterinsurgency operations to economic development at a minimum takes years if not decades to succeed.

The number one reason the coalition may not be able to help bring stability to Iraq is impatience with a task that is going to take a long time to succeed. Declarations of failure and disaster are premature.
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Old 09-01-2006, 02:38 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally posted by Teta040
As the saying goes: nobody ever gave a war and nobody came.

Just some brief responses to various points.

1) Bravo for the transcript, Anitram, but try putting that on someplace other than YouTube and anyone under the age of 40 these days (and heck, a good deal else of the American public) would suffer brain overload before the end of the first paragraph: "too many big words and expressions." I applaud too, but today the American attention span is zilch. Like it or not, the GOP has the "sexy sound bite" thing down. Today, I don't think the average TV viewer would have been able to abide Oliver North--"that which I am"? Ridiculous.

2) ALL COMMENTS ABOUT THE POSSIBILTY OF DEMOCRATS WINNING BACK ANYTHING ARE TOTALLY IRRELEVANT. THEY ARE GOING TO LOSE BECAUSE NOBODY IS DOING A DAMNED THING ABOUT BUSH'S TIME-TESTED STRATEGY OF SYSTEMATIC MASS DISENFRANCHISEMENT OF VOTERS. THIS, AND THIS ALONE, IS WHY HE WON HIS ELECTIONS. (350,000 PEOPLE PREVENTED FROM VOTING IN OHIO ALONE, IN 2004. ) IF EVERYONE WHO WANTED TO VOTE HAD VOTED IN 2000 AND 2004, OR IF THE VOTING MACHINES HAD GIVEN A RECIPT, OR IF EVERYONE WHO REGISTERED TO VOTE HAD NOT BEEN PURGED FROM THE ROLLS, OR IF IF THERE HAD BEEN ENOUGH POLLING PLACES IN THE CITIES, BUSH WOULD NOT BE IN POWER. PERIOD.

THE FACT THAT EVEN PEOPLE LIKE IRVINE IN THIS FORUM HAVE FORGOTTEN THIS FACT, THAT THEY STILL SPEAK AS IF WE HAD A DEMOCRATIC SYSTEM OF VOTING IN THIS COUNTRY, THAT WE ARE STILL A DEMOCRACY (EVEN BY BUSH'S SCANTY DEFENITION OF A DEMOCRACY) WHERE WE STILL HAVE THE RIGHT TO VOTE, SHOWS HOW SUCCESSFULLY BRAINWASHED WE HAVE BECOME. EVEN HISTORIANS ROUTINELY USE TERMS LIKE "RE-LECTED" ....

I LURK IN THESE FORUMS FOR WEEKS AND WHY IS IT THAT I AM STILL THE ONLY ONE ***SCREAMING**** (AND YES, I AM 'SCREAMING' ) ABOUT THIS FACT????? THAT WE NO LONGER HAVE A FUNCTIONING DEMOCRACY? PEOPLE IN MEXICO AREN"T TAKING IT LYING DOWN--THEY"RE CAMPING IN THE STREETS! MAYBE FOX REALLY DID WIN HONESTLY BUT EVERYTHING ABOUT THE MEXICAN ELECTION LOOKS STRANGELY FAMILAR.....

(Go ahead and flame me for "shouting"--I dare you )

3) as regards "Hitler"....politicians in the Knesset routinely cal one another a Hitler. You can't say the Jews don't have guts..the worst thing an Isreali can say is to call a fellow Jew Hitler....lol
That was such a beautiful rant I thought it deserved a re-posting! Finally, someone as passionately disturbed as I am over the Bush oligarchy--or is it a kakistocracy (government by the worst men)?
The question remains though, how do we successfully de-program the irrational religious fanatics (IRFs) who are taking advantage of the chaos in Iraq? Or with the majority still sleeping in this country and allowing Bush's brand of theocracy to replace our supposed democratic republic, do we need to focus on de-programming our own IRFs and neo-cons first?



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Old 09-01-2006, 03:12 AM   #75
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GOD! I am sooooo confused morally! Please help me see the light, King George!
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