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Old 09-23-2004, 06:41 PM   #16
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Originally posted by STING2

Its funny how liberals will pay attention to the National Intelligence Estimate in 2004, but completely ignore it in 2002!
Yes, almost as funny as Bush saying recently that the 2004 NIE was the CIA "just guessing" as to how things might be in Iraq. I'm glad to know he launched a war based on "guesses."

The Tinkerbell Doctrine is John Kerry's plan for Iraq when he becomes President. His plan as president is to go to the UN and ask other countries for aid. He is going to get thousands of French and German troops on the ground in Iraq as well as Chinese and Russian troops. Most of the fighting and and money for development will come from these and other countries.

This is indeed the Tinkerbell Doctrine. It ignores the facts of what the United States government has already done. It has asked every corner of the globe to help aid in the mission and has followed the UN system to the tee. Unfortunately, the French government would rather someone else take care of what is in their vital interest as well as the globes vital interest. Germany is conflicted with Ghost of World War II and is the most unlikely candidate to send significant numbers of troops despite their participation in Bosnia, Kosovo, and Afghanistan. Russia is simply to poor and has to many other problems to be sending troops to Iraq. China has never participated in any similar operation and is unlikely to now. It would rather watch its potential competitor and opponent solve the problem on its own. In addition, all of the countries with the exception of France has serious problems with projecting significant military power this far beyond its borders.

Kerry creates this image they he will bring hundreds of thousands of foriegn troops to take over the mission in Iraq, and there is nothing that could be farther from the truth. He is essentially talking of foreign troops and capabilities which, in many cases, simply don't currently exist.

Kerry has no understanding of these realities and does not understand that it is not this fantasy of foreign troops that will ultimately stabilize Iraq, but Iraqi's themselves.
I think perhaps what you're misunderstanding is how much credbility the US in general and Bush specifically has with the international community. Not to add fuel to the "Anybody But Bush" theory, but we could elect a penguin in six weeks and our standing in the eyes of the world would rise instantly. As far as world leaders go, Bush is probably batting 1.000 with world leaders he helped install, but I wouldn't be so sure about the others.

Also, where has Kerry said he would bring "hundreds of thousands of foriegn troops" into Iraq? I must have missed that speech.

[QUOTE] Any operation of this magnitude will have problems no matter what plan or startegy is in place. Kerry is unwilling to aknowledge that and wants people to believe that if he were president, he would have been able to build an Iraqi Disney Land.[QUOTE]

I'd like to see where he said this or something similar.

If Kerry is elected President, and wants to see Iraq succeed, he will have to suffer the embarrasment that his tinkerbell doctrine is, just that, and will be forced to continue the strategies of Bush. He will certainly try to spin it differently, but all the fundamentals will be the same.
You're probably right. I'm not sure if John Kerry can manage the situation in Iraq after January 2005 any better than Bush can. But if Kerry is elected I will feel safer having a president who has not started, as is less likely to start, pre-emptive wars based on questionable "guesses." I will also know that we are no longer being led by someone who could make such a mess of things in the fisrt place.

The Ultimate Irony is, the more successful a possible Kerry administration is in Iraq, the better it will make George Bush look in the long run.
You are absolutely right. That is nothing approaching a reason as to why we'd be better off with Bush as President, though. Essentially what you're saying is, "Look, Bush made a giant mess in Iraq and there's no way Kerry can clean it up any time soon." Why would I vote for Bush based on that?

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Old 09-26-2004, 11:44 AM   #17
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Here's an honest assestment of Iraq from a man who knows what he's talking about.


By Mike Turner
Updated: 5:31 p.m. ET Sept. 24, 2004
From a purely military standpoint, the war in Iraq is an unmitigated disaster. This administration failed to make even a cursory effort at adequately defining the political end state they sought to achieve by removing Saddam Hussein, making it impossible to precisely define long-term military success. That, in turn, makes it impossible to lay out a rational exit strategy for U.S. troops. Like Vietnam, the military is again being asked to clean up the detritus of a failed foreign policy. We are nose-deep in a protracted insurgency, an occupying Christian power in an oil-rich, Arab country. That country is not now and has never been a single nation. A single, unified, democratic Iraq comprised of Kurds, Shiites and Sunnis is a willfully ignorant illusion at best.

Two thirds of America's combat brigades are now tied down in this war which, under present conditions, is categorically unwinnable. Having alienated virtually every major ally who might help, our troops are simply targets. If Bush is re-elected, there are only two possible outcomes in Iraq:

Four years from now, America will have 5,000 dead servicemen and women and an untold number of dead Iraqis at a cost of about $1 trillion, yet still be no closer to success than we are right now, or
The U.S. will be gone, and we will witness the birth of a violent breeding ground for Shiite terrorists posing a far greater threat to Americans than a contained Saddam.
To discern the truth about Iraq, Americans must simply look beyond the spin. This war is not some noble endeavor, some great struggle of good against evil as the Bush administration would have us believe. We in the military have heard these grand pronouncements many times before by men who have neither served nor sacrificed. This war is an exercise in colossal stupidity and hubris which has now cost more than 1,000 American military lives, which has empowered Al Qaeda beyond anything those butchers might have engineered on their own and which has diverted America's attention and precious resources from the real threat at the worst possible time. And now, in a supreme act of truly breathtaking gall, this administration insists the only way to fix Iraq is to leave in power the very ones who created the nightmare.
Retired Air Force Col. Mike Turner is a former military planner who served on the U.S. Central Command planning staff for operations Desert Shield and Desert Storm. Before retiring in 1997, he spent four years as a strategic policy planner for the Joint Chiefs of Staff specializing in Middle East/Africa affairs. He is a 1973 graduate of the U.S. Air Force Academy and a former fighter pilot and air-rescue helicopter pilot.

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Old 09-28-2004, 10:55 AM   #18
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Thanks for posting this, Scarletwine.

and you hunger for the time
time to heal, desire, time

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