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Old 03-09-2006, 10:07 AM   #1
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"I wouldn't define it as consent if I can't remember it happening."

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WASHINGTON (AP) -- A midshipman who says she was raped by the Naval Academy's star quarterback testified Wednesday that with her help academy investigators secretly taped an apparent admission of the assault.

The woman, who has not been publicly identified, said that she called Lamar Owens on the phone and an investigator listened as he told her he felt distraught about what he had done and considered killing himself.

"I didn't do it for that long, you weren't even awake," said the midshipman, quoting Owens.

Owens, a 22-year-old senior from Savannah, Georgia, was charged last month under the military code of justice, with raping the female midshipman in her dormitory room on January 29.

The alleged victim testified at the beginning of Owens' Article 32 hearing at the Washington Navy Yard.

Described by the academy as roughly equivalent to a civilian grand jury proceeding, the hearing will determine if there is sufficient evidence to go ahead with a court-martial, Navy officials said.

Owens' lawyer, Steven F. Wroble, has predicted that his client will be cleared by a military court.

The alleged victim testified the assault occurred after she had been out drinking at an Annapolis bar with friends. She said she was examined for rape on January 31 and reported the attack to criminal investigators on February 6.

The taped conversation occurred shortly after her report.

Under cross-examination, the woman acknowledged she was very drunk on the night of the assault and that her memory of events was spotty. When defense attorney Wroble asked her if it was possible that she had consented to sex, she answered, "I suppose."

Later, however, she said, "I wouldn't define it as consent if I can't remember it happening."

Still later, she said, "I don't believe I would have consented."


Both Owens and the woman are attending classes at the academy, but officials say they have taken steps to ensure their paths do not cross.

Owens guided Navy's football team to an 8-4 season record that included victories over Air Force and Army and a victory in the Poinsettia Bowl over Colorado State.

now i don't know what the QB here has admitted to on tape, so this may be a moot issue... but i have a bit of an issue with the whole "i wouldn't define it as consent if i can't remember it happening."

now don't get me wrong... no is no is no and if you're in the middle of the act and someone says no and the other person continues anyway, it can still be considered rape. but if a person consents because they're voluntarily drunk, then once they sober up change their mind, can you really consider it to be rape?

i mean... i guess if the alleged rapist was stone cold sober and took advantage of the situation, but who's to say he, too, wasn't drunk, and/or that she wasn't acting fall down sloppy drunk at the time?

this whole thing confuses me.
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Old 03-09-2006, 10:20 AM   #2
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Well alcohol and consent have always been a blurry issue.
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Old 03-09-2006, 10:20 AM   #3
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Re: "I wouldn't define it as consent if I can't remember it happening."

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Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase

now don't get me wrong... no is no is no and if you're in the middle of the act and someone says no and the other person continues anyway, it can still be considered rape. but if a person consents because they're voluntarily drunk, then once they sober up change their mind, can you really consider it to be rape?


not that i think this is good or bad, but in the state where i went to college, a woman is unable to give legal consent to sex if she has had even one drink.

the same does not apply for men, i.e., if a man is hammered, and the woman is sober, and they have sex, legal rape has not happened.
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Old 03-09-2006, 11:25 AM   #4
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that's a bit biased there... not to mention that it's a little shortsided as to all the potential rape possabilities... what about a rape of a man by a man or a woman by a woman? how would those rules apply?
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Old 03-09-2006, 11:53 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase
that's a bit biased there... not to mention that it's a little shortsided as to all the potential rape possabilities... what about a rape of a man by a man or a woman by a woman? how would those rules apply?


what i remember from my training classes (was kind of an RA, only different, and more involved, and had to do some counseling of sorts in college) was that only a man is in possession of "the weapon" used in rape, and i don't remember man-on-man rape ever being discussed in this context -- i was quite closeted at the time and it never occured to me to bring it up. if we are to take the logic of the law and remove gender, it seems to me that if a man is having sex with a man, if the bottom is drunk, then the bottom cannot give consent.



but, to me, these laws get into all sorts of double standards and sexist preconceptions about men and women and sex -- i.e., men will never turn it down, that women must be shielded and protected and are incapable of making their own decisions, and the only real man-on-man rape that ever happens is man-on-boy. and i have no idea what woman-on-woman rape would be understood as since neither woman has "the weapon" as understood by the law, unless it were penetration by other objects.

it seems as if the law is obsessed with penetrator vs. penetrated, which seems to lack nuance, at the very least.

i have no idea how all this plays out in reality.
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Old 03-09-2006, 12:23 PM   #6
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it's deffinetly a cloudy topic, and probably shouldn't be so left open for interpretation.

i guess, like most things, it'll take a high profile case to get things changed.
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Old 03-09-2006, 01:02 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase
that's a bit biased there... not to mention that it's a little shortsided as to all the potential rape possabilities... what about a rape of a man by a man or a woman by a woman? how would those rules apply?
There was a Law and Order episode that addressed this issue. I think the problem was that rape is defined as forcible penetration. Therefore, men can rape women and each other, but women can't rape men or each other.

As a woman, the whole alcohol thing is very frustrating. Common sense says men should be smart enough to avoid women who've had way too much to drink. However, if she consents, she consents. You want to say "don't put yourself in that situation" but then you're blaming the victim. If the confession is not proven to be true and she did say she may have consented, I'd have a hard time voting guilty.
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Old 03-09-2006, 01:08 PM   #8
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I understand that most rape experts agree that rape is an assertion of power and control as opposed to being a purely sexual impulse.

If you look at it from that direction, it's easier to look at a situation and determine where there might be intentionally imposed sexual domination that renders the receiver helpless regardless of genders, perceived weapons and penetration.
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Old 03-09-2006, 01:23 PM   #9
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funny, my college makes it seem like if you have sex with a woman, its sexual assault or rape. consent or not. alcohol or not.
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Old 03-09-2006, 04:47 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic

As a woman, the whole alcohol thing is very frustrating. Common sense says men should be smart enough to avoid women who've had way too much to drink. However, if she consents, she consents. You want to say "don't put yourself in that situation" but then you're blaming the victim. If the confession is not proven to be true and she did say she may have consented, I'd have a hard time voting guilty.
I would have to agree. To me, if there is no physical trauma (which would happen, even if you were drunk and unconscious--there would be bruising or injury) I could not claim rape. I would have to chalk it up as a very bad mistake. I consented to something under the influence of alcohol.

Otherwise, every drunken one night stand could be constituted as a rape and I don't think that is fair or accurate.

What I think is the most frustrating about this is that it just makes things more difficult for true rape victims. Every frat girl is claiming rape instead of responsibility.
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Old 03-09-2006, 05:58 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic


I think the problem was that rape is defined as forcible penetration. Therefore, men can rape women and each other, but women can't rape men or each other.

With this definition, women still could rape women. Or maybe it would be defined as sexual assault, I don't know. For I know some definitions define sex as only penetration with a penis.

And yes as rare as it is, women can still rape men.
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Old 03-09-2006, 08:29 PM   #12
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Quote:
"I didn't do it for that long, you weren't even awake," said the midshipman, quoting Owens.
How can anyone give consent if he/she isn't conscious?
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Old 03-09-2006, 10:01 PM   #13
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two drunk people going at it, one passes out before the other realizes.

not as unrealistic as it sounds.
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Old 03-10-2006, 12:19 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase
two drunk people going at it, one passes out before the other realizes.

not as unrealistic as it sounds.
Yes but if he actually said what I quoted, he did know she wasn't conscious. Perhaps if he said "you passed out during..." but if he said "you weren't even awake" then he knew she couldn't say yes or no.
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Old 03-10-2006, 02:50 AM   #15
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Exactly, Indra. I'm shocked and rather revolted that you guys in here are confused as to whether this was rape??? She wasn't conscious! Either I'm missing something here, or you guys need a wake up call.

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