"I wouldn't define it as consent if I can't remember it happening." - Page 2 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 03-10-2006, 03:26 AM   #16
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,698
Local Time: 01:00 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
Exactly, Indra. I'm shocked and rather revolted that you guys in here are confused as to whether this was rape??? She wasn't conscious! Either I'm missing something here, or you guys need a wake up call.

Just for the record, I(and I believe so were some others) was commenting on the "I wouldn't define it as consent if i can't remember it happening" question that Headache posed, and not so much on the case at hand.

For this case, and I don't know exactly what he admitted, but if he indeed realizes she wasn't conscious, he should have stopped. Period.

But the question in general of consent and where the lines are brings up an issue that I think should be discussed. If not, like what was said before, anyone man or woman with remorse could cry rape.
__________________

__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 03-10-2006, 08:51 AM   #17
Blue Crack Distributor
 
Headache in a Suitcase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Stateless
Posts: 56,477
Local Time: 02:00 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
Exactly, Indra. I'm shocked and rather revolted that you guys in here are confused as to whether this was rape??? She wasn't conscious! Either I'm missing something here, or you guys need a wake up call.

Quote:
Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase
now i don't know what the QB here has admitted to on tape, so this may be a moot issue...
the story quoted one line... yes, obviously that one line doesn't sound good... but it doesn't show you the rest of the tape to show the context in which he said it.

i'm not neccesarily defending the navy QB here. if he knew from start to finish that she was onconscious, then yes... it's an obvious case of rape.

but if they were both conscious when the act began and he didn't realize that she had passed out at first, the small quote attributed to him here could certainly fit that situation if you think about it. you'd have to hear the rest of the tape to tell what context it was said in.

there's a big difference between somethine like this...
Quote:
i'm so sorry, we started having sex and i think you passed out. i didn't do it for that long... you weren't even awake, oh god... i'm so sorry i didn't even know you had passed out
and...
Quote:
yea i did it... i didn't do it for that long... you weren't even awake, but i did it anyway
or some shit like that....

but like bonovoxsupastar said... my question isn't neccesariliy this case alone, it's more an overall discussion of the topic, not just this specific case.
__________________

__________________
Headache in a Suitcase is offline  
Old 03-10-2006, 09:34 AM   #18
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,501
Local Time: 02:00 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
Exactly, Indra. I'm shocked and rather revolted that you guys in here are confused as to whether this was rape??? She wasn't conscious! Either I'm missing something here, or you guys need a wake up call.



you're missing what we're discussing -- the cloudy area involving alcohol and consent, as well as how consent under the law is defined, and we haven't really gotten into the specifics of the case itself, at least up until your post.
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 03-10-2006, 11:46 AM   #19
New Yorker
 
AvsGirl41's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 2,948
Local Time: 12:00 PM
Indeed. My comment was towards the issue as a whole. From the few quotes from the QB, and his expressed feelings of guilt, I would define this particular case as rape.

There seem to be details missing--she went and had a rape exam, so there must have been physical evidence such as bruising.

BUT, there have been alot of these "I was drunk and woke up with a guy, thus it wasn't consensual" sort of stories coming from college campuses. Is it in fact rape or just a very bad mistake? In my opinion, there must be physical evidence. I would think that even under the effect of alcohol or "roofies", if a man has taken advantage of a woman, there *will* be signs of trauma.

My point is that when a woman is unquestionably raped it is these iffy cases that make it that much harder for her to receive justice. It frustrates and angers me as a woman. There's a whole myraid of issues at work here, from irresponsible college policies to young women not caring for or respecting themselves. The whole thing angers me.

The fact is, you didn't have these kinds of cases before binge drinking, girls gone wild, recruitment parties, MTV spring break, etc. We have a youth culture who doesn't respect themselves, their bodies, or each other. It's all about drinking yourself insensible and hooking up with strangers--or in the case of CU, the coach buys the booze, drugs and girls for you. Sleaze has always been around, and campuses have always been hot spots for booze and sex, but it is beyond that anymore.

And I say this as a young woman, who is finishing up college and have friends who drink, do drugs, and have woken up with people they didn't remember going home with. I'm not some lecturing parent, I see it first hand. It's upsetting in more ways than I can say.
__________________
AvsGirl41 is offline  
Old 03-10-2006, 12:50 PM   #20
Blue Crack Addict
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the dog house
Posts: 19,557
Local Time: 02:00 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
Exactly, Indra. I'm shocked and rather revolted that you guys in here are confused as to whether this was rape??? She wasn't conscious! Either I'm missing something here, or you guys need a wake up call.

If she wasn't conscious, then there's no question. It was rape.

However, now she's been saying she can't remember, she may have just been trashed. That's what we were commenting on. As sleazy as it is, I couldn't send a guy to the hole for 10 years because he had sex with a woman who was so trashed she was game for anything and then couldn't remember what happened. But if I say that too loud, I'm blaming the victim.

It's almost a double standard here and illustrates a real setback when it comes to getting justice for women who HAVE been raped. If you prosecute the guy for rape, you risk acquittal and having the whole thing thrown out, rape allegations are made a mockery. If you don't, then you're blaming the victim and don't care about women's rights.
__________________
Liesje is offline  
Old 03-10-2006, 12:56 PM   #21
Blue Crack Addict
 
MrsSpringsteen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 24,999
Local Time: 02:00 PM
I wouldn't disagree that there is an element of culture, especially in colleges, of people behaving in that way avsgirl, but it's "boys gone wild " too. There is also too much disrespect for women amongst some men in college, to the point where you have "respected" coaches making horribly ignorant comments about rape and some entire aspects of college life that are ignorant about rape and actually promote incorrect attitudes about rape. Not the way to "mold" young men in my opinion.

I don't believe there have to be physical signs of trauma to be a rape - there are plenty of rapes in which there aren't, unfortunately I've known about a couple. Legally there don't have to be physical manifestations of trauma either.

There is an element of blaming the victim in an instance like that (I'm just referring to drinking, not this particular one- I don't know what really happened and none of us do) "She shouldn't have put herself in that situation"-just like that murder and rape victim in NYC Imette St Guillen.

Both parties ideally shouldn't put themselves in a drinking and sex situation, and if a man wants to avoid any possible problems maybe he should avoid that situation altogether. So should a woman too, but there is a line between that and blaming a rape victim.

Of course false allegations of rape exist but I think most statistics show they are a small minority of cases. And so many rapes still go unreported, especially acquaintance rapes.
__________________
MrsSpringsteen is offline  
Old 03-10-2006, 02:19 PM   #22
Blue Crack Distributor
 
Headache in a Suitcase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Stateless
Posts: 56,477
Local Time: 02:00 PM
i have to disagree with the thought that this is a new phenomenon brought on by MTV or what have you.

as for the colorado football scandal, there was one report that an assistant coach had paid for call girls to visit 3 recurits... but the main part of the scandal involved players using alcohol, drugs and sex to intice recruits to come to the college, and did so with teh knowledge of the coaching staff. this was combined with a number of rape allegations, also by players. coach barnett was not fired because he was personaly paying for sex, drugs and alcohol for recruits... he was fired because his players were out of control and he did nothing to stop it, and it all spiraled out of control after barnett made some rather stupid comments.

and the idea that alcohol, drugs and sex in college recruiting is a new phenomenon is laughable. i cretainly had plent of access to alcohol on my recruiting trips 8 years ago, and it certainly wasn't new then, either. when you go on a recruiting visit you stay with a player on the team, who is supposed to show you what it's like to be a college student at that particular institution. what do you think college students do?

and do not be fooled into thinking this is only a practice in men's sports. i have witnessed with my own eyes, on numerous occasions throughout my years in school, recruits for women's athletic teams drunk out of their mind, smoking pot, and more... and it was the members of the women's team who got the recruits like that in the first place.

i'm not saying it's ok, i'm just saying it's been going on for a looooong time, and is not limited to the university of colorado, men's teams, division 1, 2 or 3.

now... is there a problem with rape and male athletes? i wouldn't exactly call it a problem... i was an athlete in college and i never once heard of any such problems. doesn't mean it didn't happen, but i never heard of it, witnessed it or even heard rumors about it. that said, rape is a crime of power, not sex. it's a crime , often, of ego. many top line athletes, just like celebrities, have over-blown ego's and feel they are entitled to certain things. you combine this attitude with someone with a violent personality and you have a recipie for potential tragedy.
__________________
Headache in a Suitcase is offline  
Old 03-10-2006, 02:42 PM   #23
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,501
Local Time: 02:00 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase
[B]i have to disagree with the thought that this is a new phenomenon brought on by MTV or what have you.

i think this is true. it's only been in the last 10-15 years that "date rape" has come into national consciousness, and i think it's very clear that the majority of straight men are far more aware of what is and what isn't acceptable, from stuff as simple as "no means no."



[q]and the idea that alcohol, drugs and sex in college recruiting is a new phenomenon is laughable. i cretainly had plent of access to alcohol on my recruiting trips 8 years ago, and it certainly wasn't new then, either. when you go on a recruiting visit you stay with a player on the team, who is supposed to show you what it's like to be a college student at that particular institution. what do you think college students do?[/q]


i was a recruited swimmer at a Division III school -- and alcohol was certainly thrown in my face as a lure to get me to come to each and every school i applied to.

and i had a great time, and i loved where i went to college.
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 03-10-2006, 03:40 PM   #24
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 08:00 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic
As sleazy as it is, I couldn't send a guy to the hole for 10 years because he had sex with a woman who was so trashed she was game for anything and then couldn't remember what happened. But if I say that too loud, I'm blaming the victim.
I'm not sure it's ultimately in women's best interests to perceive such situations (i.e. conscious, but trashed) as "victimization." Unfortunately, a great many women--but not men--are raised to feel a deep sense of shame and humiliation at the thought of "having been had" by someone they wouldn't have chosen to have sex with while sober. Generally it's much easier for men to laugh off, or at least grimace and move on from, such situations. While raising women to see it this way does admittedly have at least one wholly practical and useful effect--i.e., it helps to reduce the likelihood of unwanted preganancy, a consequence men don't have to worry about--I don't think that is ultimately sufficient to justify the psychological damage that seeing themselves as inherently more exploitable can do to women. Not that I'm advocating drunken sexual encounters between people who aren't already involved in a mutual sexual relationship--I don't. But I really, really dislike the thought that we are collectively sending our daughters (but not our sons) out into the world with the mixed message of, on the one hand, "Go out there and have some fun" yet on the other, "You are tainted and shameful if you get 'taken advantage of' in the process."

And (on another topic entirely here) MrsS is correct to point out that rape, even when forceful and the woman obviously unwilling, does not necessarily result in visible physical trauma. For that matter, fully consensual sex can sometimes cause visible mild injury, making the presence or absence of minor bruising or swelling an inadequate measure in and of itself.
__________________
yolland is offline  
Old 03-10-2006, 03:45 PM   #25
New Yorker
 
AvsGirl41's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 2,948
Local Time: 12:00 PM
Oh, certainly, I didn't mean to imply it was just girls gone wild, Mrs. Springsteen--it's both sexes, equally. Neither one has respect for the other and it's disgusting.

All I can say in response to Headache and Irvine is that I never said drinking, drugs and sex in college was new, nor is date rape. I didn't think I had to give a timeline, but I think we could all agree that this has reached epic proportions in the last 10, 20 years. We're not that far apart in age here.

I don't look at the past with rose tinted glasses--but hey, I went to Panama City on spring break. I can guarantee that stuff wasn't going on in 1965. It probably wasn't going on in 1985. The cops told us it had gotten increasingly worse. Speaking as a young woman, I can say my mom didn't have to worry as much when going to a bar or party as I have to. It's a free for all.
__________________
AvsGirl41 is offline  
Old 03-10-2006, 03:56 PM   #26
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,501
Local Time: 02:00 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by AvsGirl41
All I can say in response to Headache and Irvine is that I never said drinking, drugs and sex in college was new, nor is date rape. I didn't think I had to give a timeline, but I think we could all agree that this has reached epic proportions in the last 10, 20 years. We're not that far apart in age here.

I don't look at the past with rose tinted glasses--but hey, I went to Panama City on spring break. I can guarantee that stuff wasn't going on in 1965. It probably wasn't going on in 1985. The cops told us it had gotten increasingly worse. Speaking as a young woman, I can say my mom didn't have to worry as much when going to a bar or party as I have to. It's a free for all.




this has always confused me. i remember hearing stories in college about years past, and perhaps this is just nostalgia talking, but it seems like things were far wilder, at least on a college campus, then they are today. far wilder, and with far more division between the genders and the viewing of women as potential sex objects only. and i can say that, from what i hear, things where i went to college are tamer today than they were when i was there. or at least that's my perception.



i do think, however, that the culture of Spring Break has increased in recent years, and there's an expectation to live up to the stuff you see on TV, to try and participate in a reality that never really existed in the first place.
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 03-10-2006, 04:15 PM   #27
Blue Crack Addict
 
MrsSpringsteen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 24,999
Local Time: 02:00 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by AvsGirl41
Oh, certainly, I didn't mean to imply it was just girls gone wild, Mrs. Springsteen--it's both sexes, equally. Neither one has respect for the other and it's disgusting.
I know you didn't and I agree, it is disgusting- maybe people don't have respect for themselves either. But that can come from issues that I understand, that can be complicated.

The bottom line for me is that I feel we still have a double standard - the woman in this situation or any like it, or any rape that is far more clear cut than this one is, will always face more questions, be subjected to more insinuations, be less believed, etc. I can't imagine that a man in Imette St Guillen's situation would face any questions as to what he was doing out at 3 or 4 AM at a bar.

I understand that the accuser must be questioned as to how valid her accusations are and that rape must be proven because it is such a serious allegation, but it goes way beyond that in so many situations. And its for that very reason that so many women still don't report rapes. It is a horrific thing to be put through when you have already been raped.
__________________
MrsSpringsteen is offline  
Old 03-10-2006, 04:20 PM   #28
Refugee
 
fly so high!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: St Andrews NSW Australia
Posts: 1,835
Local Time: 05:00 AM
There is nothing to be confused here!

She did not consent , it's rape plain and simple!
__________________
fly so high! is offline  
Old 03-10-2006, 04:31 PM   #29
BAW
The Flower
 
BAW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: The OC....!!!!
Posts: 11,094
Local Time: 11:00 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511






this has always confused me. i remember hearing stories in college about years past, and perhaps this is just nostalgia talking, but it seems like things were far wilder, at least on a college campus, then they are today. far wilder, and with far more division between the genders and the viewing of women as potential sex objects only. and i can say that, from what i hear, things where i went to college are tamer today than they were when i was there. or at least that's my perception.




I didn't go to college but my high school years were 1980-1984 and things were pretty friggen wild back then. There was a whole lot of sex going on, tons of drugs and drinking etc. Those 80's teen movies where the parents go out of town and 100 kids trash the house and have sex in the parents' bed were pretty much based in reality. I can only imagine it was even wilder when people left home for college.


And you are correct about the gender divide back then. If a girl got trashed and was taken advantage of or just couldn't remember saying yes, she tended to wake up and say "oh my God, I can't believe I did that" rather than "he raped me." I don't think we would have even considered telling someone, other than our friends. The prevailing attitude was "well he's a guy, what do you expect?" High school and college age guys got away with a LOT back then.
__________________
BAW is offline  
Old 03-10-2006, 07:35 PM   #30
Blue Crack Distributor
 
Headache in a Suitcase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Stateless
Posts: 56,477
Local Time: 02:00 PM
this is all obviously if the person voluntarily drank themselves drunk... if they are coerced into drinking or have something put into their drink or whatever, that's a completely different situation.

but if a woman gets drunk and consents, even if she never would have if she was sober, i have a hard time convicting someone of rape.
__________________

__________________
Headache in a Suitcase is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:00 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com