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Old 07-19-2006, 07:03 PM   #46
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
If sexuality is a matter of choice then that is a contradiction in terms.


what about the notion of "biological error"?
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Old 07-19-2006, 07:05 PM   #47
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Actually there are probably a few different interpretations for that "gospel" statement I made, I suppose depending upon who is interpreting it.
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Old 07-19-2006, 07:14 PM   #48
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Actually there are probably a few different interpretations for that "gospel" statement I made, I suppose depending upon who is interpreting it.
Yeah, I wasn't sure how to interpret it myself. I just assumed sarcasm and left it alone!
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Old 07-19-2006, 07:29 PM   #49
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Actually there are probably a few different interpretations for that "gospel" statement I made, I suppose depending upon who is interpreting it.

LoL, imagine that. Differing interpretations of the gospel in FYM.
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Old 07-19-2006, 08:50 PM   #50
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I think this is actually a good question, and I think we all know the answer.

I really don't understand the standard Right Wing approach to "life" issues. The argument is that it's about saving "lives" but it's really not (otherwise the typical politicized evangelical view would oppose the death penalty not support it). It's really about which lives are more valuable and thus more worth saving. The unborn and the stem cells often appear to have more "value" than say the death row prisoner or the enemy soldier on the battlefield. Which, I suppose you could make the argument. . .but MAKE the argument. Don't hide behind this concept of "pro-life." The so-called "left" already admitts that the this what the discussion is about. . .are embroyos worth more than "already born" humans? The right needs to admitt that this is really what the debate is about as well.
The prolife movement isn't about protecting all life, and I don't know of anyone who has ever claimed it is. It's actually about protecting innocent life.
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Old 07-19-2006, 09:23 PM   #51
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The prolife movement isn't about protecting all life, and I don't know of anyone who has ever claimed it is. It's actually about protecting innocent life.
What movements are actually about, and the way they are sold or promoted are often two different things.

My point is the debate is still about which lives are more "valuable".

Are already born adults automatically of less value than those yet to be born? Or vice versa?
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Old 07-19-2006, 09:38 PM   #52
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Originally posted by maycocksean


My point is the debate is still about which lives are more "valuable".

Are already born adults automatically of less value than those yet to be born? Or vice versa?
Do you really want the government to legislate the value of a life?
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Old 07-19-2006, 09:54 PM   #53
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Do you really want the government to legislate the value of a life?
Isn't that what we have now?
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Old 07-19-2006, 09:57 PM   #54
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Okay, let me rephrase --

Given the amount of ineptitude our government displays on a regular basis, do you honestly trust them to make the right decision about the value of a life, especially given the various ethical issues at play?
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Old 07-19-2006, 10:00 PM   #55
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Okay, let me rephrase --

Given the amount of ineptitude our government displays on a regular basis, do you honestly trust them to make the right decision about the value of a life, especially given the various ethical issues at play?
No, which is why this veto is an abomination to life.
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Old 07-19-2006, 10:03 PM   #56
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Originally posted by nathan1977


Do you really want the government to legislate the value of a life?
Nothing personal here, nathan1977, but these are the kinds of politically loaded questions that just drive me up the wall.

I think the question you're really asking, though it doesn't sound near as sexy, is "Do you really want the government to legislate a lower value to innocent human life?"

And the fact is that whatever action Congress takes whether it's to allow federal funding for stem cell research or to ban federal funding is legislating SOMETHING about the value of a human life.
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Old 07-19-2006, 10:09 PM   #57
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Okay, let me rephrase --

Given the amount of ineptitude our government displays on a regular basis, do you honestly trust them to make the right decision about the value of a life, especially given the various ethical issues at play?
Apologies. I didn't see your rephrase until after I posted. Your argument actually could be used to support both sides of the debate really. After all, "how can we leave it up to the bumbling fools up in Washington to decide federal funding should be prohibited? They clearly don't have ethical foundations do so right?"
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Old 07-19-2006, 11:05 PM   #58
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I'll be honest I don't know a whole lot about this issue, but isn't it true that there are other ways to get stem cells? Do they have to be embryonic?
No.

Embryonic stem cells (ESCs) receive tremendous media attention, with oft-repeated claims that they have the POTENTIAL to cure virtually every disease known. Yet they have yet to even make it into a human clinical trial. This is even as alternatives — adult stem cells (ASCs) from numerous places in the body as well as umbilical cord blood and placenta — are curing diseases here and now and have been doing so for decades.

Embryonic stem cells are speculative in their human use, and the entire field (“therapeutic cloning”) has been a consistent story of failure and fraud.

Jan 11th 2006
SEOUL, South Korea (AP) -- South Korea's top university on Wednesday apologized for the scandal over Hwang Woo-suk's faked stem cell research, calling it a blemish on the country that embraced the scientist as a national hero.
The government said it would withdraw Hwang's "top scientist" title -- an honor created especially for him in the wake of purported breakthroughs that raised hopes for using stem cells to develop new treatments of diseases from Alzheimer's to diabetes.
Seoul National University's apology came a day after its investigative panel confirmed that Hwang faked ALL of his human stem cell research, including his landmark 2004 claim in the journal Science that he cloned a human embryo and extracted stem cells from it.
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Old 07-19-2006, 11:12 PM   #59
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A very small minority of the scientific community will ever argue that adult stem cells have the same potential as embryonic stem cells. Obviously they have been available for decades longer, any idiot can tell you that as we weren't technically capable of creating embryos in petri dishes in the 50s!

To call it fraud signals commentary by somebody who has little to no knowledge of how stem cells work, what the differences between the lines are.

If you don't support research on moral grounds, say it. But to disguise it by suggesting ESCs are fraudulent and a failed story is wrong.
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Old 07-20-2006, 12:19 AM   #60
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If you don't support research on moral grounds, say it. But to disguise it by suggesting ESCs are fraudulent and a failed story is wrong.
Moral grounds? Let's just say I'm against using medicine to give people false hope. And right now, embryonic stem-cell research is the scientific equivalent of Benny Hinn. Lot's of big promises, lot's of pleas for more money...but in the end, few results.
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