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Old 07-19-2006, 02:58 PM   #31
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Originally posted by nathan1977
^ Let me refresh your memory.

The issue here is the slippery slope of government-sponsored growth and harvesting of living tissue.

Once begun, where will it end?


i don't share your sense of crisis, nor do i think a blastocyst is living tissue in any meaningful sense.

this is what medical ethicists are for, to untangle these moral, social, and ethical challenges. i don't see any floodgates being opened by the very broad consensus that embryonic stem cell research has significant medical potential.

in fact, i'd argue that federal funding would lead to increased federal oversight and accountability that would ensure that medical authorities will create acceptable regulatory frameworks for such research.
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Old 07-19-2006, 02:58 PM   #32
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


I diagree that it is "just a political move". I think he truly believes in what he's doing.
I actually agree. I think he truly does believe that this is somehow human life, and this is only one reason that I truly believe him to mentally affected.
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Old 07-19-2006, 02:59 PM   #33
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The slippery slope argument holds no water. That's what regulations are for.

When I think of all the human suffering that could be alleviated, but is dismissed due to his brand of "morality," it makes me ill.
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Old 07-19-2006, 03:00 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977
^ Let me refresh your memory.

The issue here is the slippery slope of government-sponsored growth and harvesting of living tissue.

Once begun, where will it end?
What exactly is the slippery slope? I see none.
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Old 07-19-2006, 03:51 PM   #35
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
I actually agree. I think he truly does believe that this is somehow human life, and this is only one reason that I truly believe him to mentally affected.
Perhaps you can use your mental superiority (apparently over Bush) and tell us exactly when human life begins.
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Old 07-19-2006, 03:55 PM   #36
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There is a difference between federal and private funding, for those who have never actually worked in a lab to know that.

When you accept money from a private source, you are indebted to them to perform research which fits in with their current protocols and plans and is specifically designed to increase their financial gain. Sometimes the research is idiotic and a lot of times it leads nowhere but the sums of money are there.

The government money is also far more regulated, and it is very competitive to get. This means that public grants are scrutinized better and there is more accountability for less money received. Private grants are given out with the goal most often being to outsource some work to a lab and then make a bigger profit off it.

So no, it's a cop out to just say, let a corporation do all the work.

Corporate medical research is aimed at making back their enormous R&D investments, and the buck is always passed down to the consumer. Which is why we have outrageous inequality in that regard.
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Old 07-19-2006, 04:04 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Perhaps you can use your mental superiority (apparently over Bush) and tell us exactly when human life begins.
I never claimed superiority, I said he was affected.

Do these cells divide on their own and grow into a human within this petri dish?
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Old 07-19-2006, 04:08 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Perhaps you can use your mental superiority (apparently over Bush) and tell us exactly when human life begins.


what do we mean by "human life"?

is "human life" the same thing as personhood?
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Old 07-19-2006, 04:15 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Perhaps you can use your mental superiority (apparently over Bush) and tell us exactly when human life begins.
it is pretty easy to say the stem cells donated from in-vitro donors are not human beings

these people want to have children
they are not conceiving, carrying, for awhile and then aborting and donating

these are stem cells that will be destroyed
they will only be used if the donor chooses to put them to use

there is no law to prevent them from taking them home and feeding them to their cat


people who claim absolutes are often wrong
hard core pro-choicers that say a woman has complete control over her body until the baby is born are wrong

to abort at 8 1/2 months is wrong
to call it a parasite in her body is wrong

some pro-choice
warn of a slippery slope and do not want any one but the woman saying what can happen until a natural birth at nine months

their absolute stand is just as wrong as calling the stem cells human beings
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Old 07-19-2006, 06:06 PM   #40
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Originally posted by trevster2k
If Bush had to rush into a burning room, and there was a trayful of 60 embryos and a little kid, which would he rescue if he could only save one or the other?
I think this is actually a good question, and I think we all know the answer.

I really don't understand the standard Right Wing approach to "life" issues. The argument is that it's about saving "lives" but it's really not (otherwise the typical politicized evangelical view would oppose the death penalty not support it). It's really about which lives are more valuable and thus more worth saving. The unborn and the stem cells often appear to have more "value" than say the death row prisoner or the enemy soldier on the battlefield. Which, I suppose you could make the argument. . .but MAKE the argument. Don't hide behind this concept of "pro-life." The so-called "left" already admitts that the this what the discussion is about. . .are embroyos worth more than "already born" humans? The right needs to admitt that this is really what the debate is about as well.

For me personally, I tend to lean towards supporting federal support for stem cell research. Whatever "slippery slope" there is, is already there through private reserach. If anything, allowing for federal funding would provide more oversight and make it less likely that the "Bottom Line" will take the place of ethics. Anitram has already argued this point quite eloquently.

By the way, aussieU2 I'm a Christian, so no, there is not a single "Christian" stance on stem stell research (or on just about any other issue other than the divinity of Jesus). If there's one thing I learned on the atheist thread it's that not all atheists believe the same. You might do well to learn the same of Christians (not to mention those of other faiths).
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Old 07-19-2006, 06:21 PM   #41
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I'll be honest I don't know a whole lot about this issue, but isn't it true that there are other ways to get stem cells? Do they have to be embryonic?

Just asking, my peeps.

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Old 07-19-2006, 06:23 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean

By the way, aussieU2 I'm a Christian, so no, there is not a single "Christian" stance on stem stell research (or on just about any other issue other than the divinity of Jesus). If there's one thing I learned on the atheist thread it's that not all atheists believe the same. You might do well to learn the same of Christians (not to mention those of other faiths).
Thanks for saying that. But all Christians do believe the same and are all the same kinds of people ~ the gospel according to FYM



http://thinkprogress.org/2006/07/19/...-cell-science/

"Today, Bush is expected to veto a bill that would expand federal funding for embryonic stem cell research. It will be the first veto of his presidency. Last week, Karl Rove –- explaining why Bush planned on vetoing the bill — told the Denver Post that “recent studies” show researchers “have far more promise from adult stem cells than from embryonic stem cells.”

The Chicago Tribune contacted a dozen top stem cell experts about Rove’s claim. They all said it was inaccurate. So who wrote the “studies” that Rove was referring to?

White House spokesman Ken Lisaius on Tuesday could not provide the name of a stem cell researcher who shares Rove’s views on the superior promise of adult stem cells.

In a letter to President Bush last year, a group of 80 Nobel laureates wrote that “current evidence suggests that adult stem cells have markedly restricted differentiation potential.”

Question: Does President Bush believe that adult stem cell research has “far more promise” than embryonic stem cells? Is that a contributing factor in his decision to veto the bill? "

Bush's comments about the veto are on the WH web site, if anyone cares to read them
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Old 07-19-2006, 06:27 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




unless it's an unborn gay.
If sexuality is a matter of choice then that is a contradiction in terms.
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Old 07-19-2006, 06:38 PM   #44
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Over the past two decades since the first "test-tube baby" was born, an estimated 400,000 frozen embryos have accumulated in more than 400 fertility clinics in the U.S.
Quote:
Nightlight Christian Adoptions connects biological parents of those embryos with other families trying to conceive; so far 110 children have been born and an additional 20 are due by February.
So doing the math-
399,000+
will be flushed down the toilet
where is the outcry at this holocaust?

why the need to be a surrogate and carry someone else's baby to term,
and give birth ?

when there are millions of children languishing in orphanages?

I have two adopted nieces, ages 3 and 6, that were abandoned

I am proud and happy that my family members took these little girls out of orphanages
and did not go to the freezer for Mrs. Paul's eggs

link here
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Old 07-19-2006, 06:58 PM   #45
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Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen


Thanks for saying that. But all Christians do believe the same and are all the same kinds of people ~ the gospel according to FYM
[
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