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Old 06-19-2003, 11:15 PM   #31
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Originally posted by Amna
Hmmmm, this is what some of these "terrorists" are saying in response to the many innocent killed within their territory by the Western powers.. [/B]
Please post examples of Western powers INTENTIONALLY targeting civilians like terrorists do. Please post examples of Western powers INTENTIONALLY trying to kill as many innocent people as possible who have nothing to do with any war.

I know I can post 3,000 examples of radical Islamists INTENTIONALLY targeting innocent people. And that 3,000 is just from one day.
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Old 06-19-2003, 11:17 PM   #32
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wolfwill, I can see your point, I agree with you in many ways... But if targeting terror goes to the point where innocent civilians are killed, then beleive me, people will hold agression against the West, and this will follow with other problems... Taking one innocent life is a big thing... In this war on terror, many have been killed, there is no exact number, but the number is higher then what is stated in any news report...... This in itself has already created a lot of anomosity... If my family was killed in the process of a "War on Terror", I would hold annomosity against the people who did it, I think the normal human being would...
Life is sacred, but if we want to fight in a just way, the strategy must be focused on helping build an infrastructure that will topple these organizations....
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Old 06-19-2003, 11:26 PM   #33
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Originally posted by Amna
wolfwill, I can see your point, I agree with you in many ways... But if targeting terror goes to the point where innocent civilians are killed, then beleive me, people will hold agression against the West, and this will follow with other problems... Taking one innocent life is a big thing... In this war on terror, many have been killed, there is no exact number, but the number is higher then what is stated in any news report......
As I stated earlier, please give me descriptions of a Western country INTERTIONALLY targeting a civilian.

[/B][/QUOTE]...if we want to fight in a just way, the strategy must be focused on helping build an infrastructure that will topple these organizations.... [/B][/QUOTE]

Please describe this infrastructure. I do not believe such a thing exists.
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Old 06-19-2003, 11:30 PM   #34
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Wolfwill, the difference between killings by American or Israeli soldiers, and the killings from terrorist organizations, is that American and Israeli's are government supported.... hmmmmmmmmm, doesn't that make it all the more sketchier...

You want me to give you examples... where should I start...

should I start with Vietnam and go to the Gulf War and the current war on Iraq?

And with Israel, which cases do you want me to talk about? The one's that involve old women going to the hospital to get surgery, but instead get PURPOSLY shot b4 making it to the hospital... Or should I talk about the cases where kids are being hit by bullets by soldiers, while the soldiers are laughing afterwards...>>>?????
Or what about Sabra and Shatilla, where more people were killed by Sharon then during 9-11... Where most of the victims were innocent, children, women, and men... These people were personally slaughtered.....

Terrorism has many faces... But when someone is unjustly (and purposly) killed, you can call it colateral damage or whatever bs that you might want to... But in my eyes, this is also another form of terror....

I don't want to list many examples, that would be beyond emotionally draining...........
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Old 06-19-2003, 11:32 PM   #35
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Infrastructure: Water irrigation, Schools, Hospitals...

The Palestinians don't have these......

Many women give birth at check points, either dying themselves or having their babies die....
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Old 06-19-2003, 11:36 PM   #36
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I don't want to compete.... I'm giving a simple message that this world is suffering, only b/c we are commiting the same corrupt acts as we did in the past history... history is repeating itself... This goes for every part of the world... I'm not trying to side with anyone, I'm just saying that this world needs to have a different approach to things...
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Old 06-19-2003, 11:46 PM   #37
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It's interesting that America, the country with the freest press in the world, has not reported on Israel purposly killing an old woman and then laughing about it. I find that difficult to believe. And if it did happen, I also find it difficult to believe that Israel supports such a thing. Israel is a county with a free press as well and I think somebody would have reported on such a thing. Also, I think some US news organization, such as the NY Times would have picked up on such a story and reported it.

As far as infrastructure, I agree with you. These people need hospitals and schools. However, as long as they are blowing up busses full of kids and grandmothers, there will be other prioritories. That is why each jihader is not only hurting Jews when they blow themselves up, but they are also hurting their cause. When the bombing stops, then build hospitals.

You're right about history repeating itself. To me, it looks like we have a group of radicals that will not cease until the entire world is a radical muslim state. As I stated earlier, there was someone with a similar vision in 1941. If America had acted sooner in that conflict, such as pre-emptively, then perhaps we could have saved 6 million innocent lives.
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Old 06-20-2003, 10:45 AM   #38
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wolfwill I agree with you whole heartedly on this. Until the palestinian people take their country back from these radicals. And understand that terrorism is no serving their interests I dont' think the united states is under any obligation to provide infrastructure. What message does that send if they constantly threaten an ally of the United stated with violence and yet recieve considerable aid.

Also since when does the burden of all this fall on the United states. ...they rest of the arab world doesn't lift a finger to invest and help the palestinians out...and if you think the money to do so doesn't exist your dead wrong.


In the latest intifada(sp?) about 3x more palestinians have been killed than isrealis. Sheer intelligence should lead the palestinians to realize that terrorism is just not in their best interest...but for some reason they fail to realize this on even the most basic of quantitative levels.


The palestinian people deserve more than what hamas, or even what the rest of the arab world is giving them now. And sadly, as much as I iwsh it wasn't..it's their own fault. Abu abbas is a man I have respect for ..bu t Until he turns around and crcks down and does some very radical things, including throwing arafat in jail , nothing is gonna get done.

Let's not forget the clinton peace deal...the onus is still on the palestinians to explain why they rejected it in such a disasterous way.
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Old 06-20-2003, 11:51 AM   #39
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Originally posted by Arun V
Also since when does the burden of all this fall on the United states. ...they rest of the arab world doesn't lift a finger to invest and help the palestinians out...
Sure the Arab wolrd helps the Palestinians. The Saudis and the former Iraq have fund raisers for suicide bomber's families. That's very nice of them. Syria and Lebenon support Hamaas with money and communications support. That's not supporting terror, is it? Do you see a trend here? As long as these countries still support terrorism with money, communications support and arms, it will be hard to stop this downward spiral or violence.

If these two-faced Arab countries want to see the killing of Arabs stopped, then they need to stop the incitment in young Arabs and stop supporting terrorism.

Also, I do believe that the US needs to look closely at its relationship with Saudi Arabia. The leaders of that country say they are against terror but then funnel money to terrorist organizations behind the scenes.
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Old 06-20-2003, 01:59 PM   #40
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About our media, how can you consider it "free"... The media is controlled by a few families that are obsenely rich... They control what goes in and out of our media... The people who owns New YOrk Times, owns just about everyother mag. and newspaper... In order to get something published, you better be rich.. OUr Free media isn't that free..... It is influenced by wealth, lobbyists, and selected rich people with certain political views.. Wether we like it or not media around the world is bias. The US is not excluded from this..


The story about the old woman being shot by a soldier, and the brutal killings of kids come from news abroad, including one of my fav. journalists, JOhn Pilger, who had filmed documentaries in the Gaza and West Bank...

HOw can you excuse the demolition of hospitals and schools... Or how can u excuse the halt in building these facilities... These facilities bring hope to people, if people don't have hope, of course they are gonna start killing themselves, even though i don't agree with killing oneself along with a whole bus full of innocent lives.. But these people who are deprived of such facilities will go to extreme, because they have nothing to live for... Tell me something, it is sad, but how many people knew what was going on in the Arab-Israeli conflict, before all of these suicide attacks were brought upon... I"m not trying to justify the suicide attacks, but these people were obvioulsy trying to draw attention, and the sad part is, that the public all of a sudden gave attention at the wrong time... WE REALLY NEED TO LOOK INTO ALL THESE CONFLICTS BEFORE THEY BECOME WORST... WE NEED TO TAKE THE EXTRA STEP IN UNDERSTANDING THESE ISSUES, AND I DON'T MEAN LISTENING TO THE NEWS 24/7, I MEAN READING ALL SORTS OF BIAS BOOKS, TALKING TO PEOPLE ETC.

And there is a difference b/w the Israeli government, and the Israeli people.. Many people in Israel don't agree with what Sharon is doing... When I say the Israeli gov't is being irresponsible, I'm saying that Sharon and his pals are not doing a good job, I'm not saying that the Israeli people are doing an irresponsible job.

I agree that thses other Arab states need to take more control on where their money goes... This is what the Palestinians are crying for..

Arun, the burden falls on the US, because it was the US who had funded Israel with its army supplies and infrastructure... The US gov't called for this burden..

As for Mehmoud Abu Abbas, I sure hope he is strong enough to take things into his own hand... B/c it will be tough, no doubt about it..
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Old 06-21-2003, 05:05 PM   #41
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It is this simple. Hamaas, Islamic Jihad and all the other Palestinian terror groups need to be destroyed. There can be no true peace until this happens. Israel is right to target the leaders of these groups.

Once these groups are destroyed and their leaders killed or locked up, then the peace process can truly begin. I know it sounds harsh, but when you've got guys blowing up busses with innocent people on them, you've got to be harsh.
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Old 06-21-2003, 05:13 PM   #42
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wolfwill23,

Would your policy be the same for any Jewish/Zionist groups that used the same tactics? that is: terror, bombings, etc.?
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Old 06-21-2003, 10:39 PM   #43
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Thats right deep,
I hope wolfwill and ouizy understand how complex the situation is.... It's not all about, like Bush says, tracking those terrorists down... We need to be a little smarter about how to approach this situation.... We as the aspiring peace makers....
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Old 06-21-2003, 11:00 PM   #44
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Any group that plots to murder INNOCENT CIVILIANS should be eliminated.

And Amna, how do you think peace is possible when Israel agrees to implemt (and has begun doing so) the road map while radical Palestineans (sp) kill innocent Israelis specifically to derail the peace process? I don't even know how one can talk peace while the group Hamaas still exists. You don't negotiate with murderers.

Again, eliminate Hamaas and then rebuild. These radicals will not be satisfied until the Jews are pushed into the water and that you cannot deny.
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Old 06-22-2003, 01:26 PM   #45
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I agree once again wolfwill, but you are missing my point, Hamas is not the only terror, the IDF commits them 2... YOu just don't know about the specifics... Who controls the specifics of the IDF, well, Sharon controls them...

So, does this mean we are going to have to Kill SHARON... This must sound harsh, doesn't it....

by the way, heres an interesting study... I presented a John PIlger video to my college, and their was a man who started yelling after the video, calling it bias.. Even though their were many Israeli's in the video, including an ex-soldier, and father who lost his daughter in a suicide attack, both against what the IDF was doing in the WB and GS... So, anyways, this man could not stop yelling... I wonder, what if this man lost his family to the Israeli Defense Force, and what if the right to be treated in a hospital and the right to learn were taken from his hands... what would he do... This man, who finds it easy to yell at a bunch of young women of showing this educational video, what would this man do if he lived in the West Bank????

By the way, how can we know how many have been unjustly murdered in the West Bank, if no Red Cross, or anyother organization is allowed in the West Bank... >????
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