I think we now know which Palestinians have power.

[wolfwill23]

Hmmmm, this is what some of these "terrorists" are saying in response to the many innocent killed within their territory by the Western powers.. [/B]

Please post examples of Western powers INTENTIONALLY targeting civilians like terrorists do. Please post examples of Western powers INTENTIONALLY trying to kill as many innocent people as possible who have nothing to do with any war.

I know I can post 3,000 examples of radical Islamists INTENTIONALLY targeting innocent people. And that 3,000 is just from one day.

 

[Amna]

wolfwill, I can see your point, I agree with you in many ways... But if targeting terror goes to the point where innocent civilians are killed, then beleive me, people will hold agression against the West, and this will follow with other problems... Taking one innocent life is a big thing... In this war on terror, many have been killed, there is no exact number, but the number is higher then what is stated in any news report...... This in itself has already created a lot of anomosity... If my family was killed in the process of a "War on Terror", I would hold annomosity against the people who did it, I think the normal human being would...
Life is sacred, but if we want to fight in a just way, the strategy must be focused on helping build an infrastructure that will topple these organizations....

 

[wolfwill23]

wolfwill, I can see your point, I agree with you in many ways... But if targeting terror goes to the point where innocent civilians are killed, then beleive me, people will hold agression against the West, and this will follow with other problems... Taking one innocent life is a big thing... In this war on terror, many have been killed, there is no exact number, but the number is higher then what is stated in any news report......

As I stated earlier, please give me descriptions of a Western country INTERTIONALLY targeting a civilian.

[/B][/QUOTE]...if we want to fight in a just way, the strategy must be focused on helping build an infrastructure that will topple these organizations.... [/B][/QUOTE]

Please describe this infrastructure. I do not believe such a thing exists.

 

[Amna]

Wolfwill, the difference between killings by American or Israeli soldiers, and the killings from terrorist organizations, is that American and Israeli's are government supported.... hmmmmmmmmm, doesn't that make it all the more sketchier...

You want me to give you examples... where should I start...

should I start with Vietnam and go to the Gulf War and the current war on Iraq?

And with Israel, which cases do you want me to talk about? The one's that involve old women going to the hospital to get surgery, but instead get PURPOSLY shot b4 making it to the hospital... Or should I talk about the cases where kids are being hit by bullets by soldiers, while the soldiers are laughing afterwards...>>>?????
Or what about Sabra and Shatilla, where more people were killed by Sharon then during 9-11... Where most of the victims were innocent, children, women, and men... These people were personally slaughtered.....

Terrorism has many faces... But when someone is unjustly (and purposly) killed, you can call it colateral damage or whatever bs that you might want to... But in my eyes, this is also another form of terror....

I don't want to list many examples, that would be beyond emotionally draining...........

 

[Amna]

Infrastructure: Water irrigation, Schools, Hospitals...

The Palestinians don't have these......

Many women give birth at check points, either dying themselves or having their babies die....

 

[Amna]

I don't want to compete.... I'm giving a simple message that this world is suffering, only b/c we are commiting the same corrupt acts as we did in the past history... history is repeating itself... This goes for every part of the world... I'm not trying to side with anyone, I'm just saying that this world needs to have a different approach to things...

 

[wolfwill23]

It's interesting that America, the country with the freest press in the world, has not reported on Israel purposly killing an old woman and then laughing about it. I find that difficult to believe. And if it did happen, I also find it difficult to believe that Israel supports such a thing. Israel is a county with a free press as well and I think somebody would have reported on such a thing. Also, I think some US news organization, such as the NY Times would have picked up on such a story and reported it.

As far as infrastructure, I agree with you. These people need hospitals and schools. However, as long as they are blowing up busses full of kids and grandmothers, there will be other prioritories. That is why each jihader is not only hurting Jews when they blow themselves up, but they are also hurting their cause. When the bombing stops, then build hospitals.

You're right about history repeating itself. To me, it looks like we have a group of radicals that will not cease until the entire world is a radical muslim state. As I stated earlier, there was someone with a similar vision in 1941. If America had acted sooner in that conflict, such as pre-emptively, then perhaps we could have saved 6 million innocent lives.

 

[V Nura]

wolfwill I agree with you whole heartedly on this. Until the palestinian people take their country back from these radicals. And understand that terrorism is no serving their interests I dont' think the united states is under any obligation to provide infrastructure. What message does that send if they constantly threaten an ally of the United stated with violence and yet recieve considerable aid.

Also since when does the burden of all this fall on the United states. ...they rest of the arab world doesn't lift a finger to invest and help the palestinians out...and if you think the money to do so doesn't exist your dead wrong.


In the latest intifada(sp?) about 3x more palestinians have been killed than isrealis. Sheer intelligence should lead the palestinians to realize that terrorism is just not in their best interest...but for some reason they fail to realize this on even the most basic of quantitative levels.


The palestinian people deserve more than what hamas, or even what the rest of the arab world is giving them now. And sadly, as much as I iwsh it wasn't..it's their own fault. Abu abbas is a man I have respect for ..bu t Until he turns around and crcks down and does some very radical things, including throwing arafat in jail , nothing is gonna get done.

Let's not forget the clinton peace deal...the onus is still on the palestinians to explain why they rejected it in such a disasterous way.

 

[wolfwill23]

Also since when does the burden of all this fall on the United states. ...they rest of the arab world doesn't lift a finger to invest and help the palestinians out...

Sure the Arab wolrd helps the Palestinians. The Saudis and the former Iraq have fund raisers for suicide bomber's families. That's very nice of them. Syria and Lebenon support Hamaas with money and communications support. That's not supporting terror, is it? Do you see a trend here? As long as these countries still support terrorism with money, communications support and arms, it will be hard to stop this downward spiral or violence.

If these two-faced Arab countries want to see the killing of Arabs stopped, then they need to stop the incitment in young Arabs and stop supporting terrorism.

Also, I do believe that the US needs to look closely at its relationship with Saudi Arabia. The leaders of that country say they are against terror but then funnel money to terrorist organizations behind the scenes.

 

[Amna]

About our media, how can you consider it "free"... The media is controlled by a few families that are obsenely rich... They control what goes in and out of our media... The people who owns New YOrk Times, owns just about everyother mag. and newspaper... In order to get something published, you better be rich.. OUr Free media isn't that free..... It is influenced by wealth, lobbyists, and selected rich people with certain political views.. Wether we like it or not media around the world is bias. The US is not excluded from this..


The story about the old woman being shot by a soldier, and the brutal killings of kids come from news abroad, including one of my fav. journalists, JOhn Pilger, who had filmed documentaries in the Gaza and West Bank...

HOw can you excuse the demolition of hospitals and schools... Or how can u excuse the halt in building these facilities... These facilities bring hope to people, if people don't have hope, of course they are gonna start killing themselves, even though i don't agree with killing oneself along with a whole bus full of innocent lives.. But these people who are deprived of such facilities will go to extreme, because they have nothing to live for... Tell me something, it is sad, but how many people knew what was going on in the Arab-Israeli conflict, before all of these suicide attacks were brought upon... I"m not trying to justify the suicide attacks, but these people were obvioulsy trying to draw attention, and the sad part is, that the public all of a sudden gave attention at the wrong time... WE REALLY NEED TO LOOK INTO ALL THESE CONFLICTS BEFORE THEY BECOME WORST... WE NEED TO TAKE THE EXTRA STEP IN UNDERSTANDING THESE ISSUES, AND I DON'T MEAN LISTENING TO THE NEWS 24/7, I MEAN READING ALL SORTS OF BIAS BOOKS, TALKING TO PEOPLE ETC.

And there is a difference b/w the Israeli government, and the Israeli people.. Many people in Israel don't agree with what Sharon is doing... When I say the Israeli gov't is being irresponsible, I'm saying that Sharon and his pals are not doing a good job, I'm not saying that the Israeli people are doing an irresponsible job.

I agree that thses other Arab states need to take more control on where their money goes... This is what the Palestinians are crying for..

Arun, the burden falls on the US, because it was the US who had funded Israel with its army supplies and infrastructure... The US gov't called for this burden..

As for Mehmoud Abu Abbas, I sure hope he is strong enough to take things into his own hand... B/c it will be tough, no doubt about it..

 

[wolfwill23]

It is this simple. Hamaas, Islamic Jihad and all the other Palestinian terror groups need to be destroyed. There can be no true peace until this happens. Israel is right to target the leaders of these groups.

Once these groups are destroyed and their leaders killed or locked up, then the peace process can truly begin. I know it sounds harsh, but when you've got guys blowing up busses with innocent people on them, you've got to be harsh.

 

[deep]

wolfwill23,

Would your policy be the same for any Jewish/Zionist groups that used the same tactics? that is: terror, bombings, etc.?

 

[Amna]

Thats right deep,
I hope wolfwill and ouizy understand how complex the situation is.... It's not all about, like Bush says, tracking those terrorists down... We need to be a little smarter about how to approach this situation.... We as the aspiring peace makers....

 

[wolfwill23]

Any group that plots to murder INNOCENT CIVILIANS should be eliminated.

And Amna, how do you think peace is possible when Israel agrees to implemt (and has begun doing so) the road map while radical Palestineans (sp) kill innocent Israelis specifically to derail the peace process? I don't even know how one can talk peace while the group Hamaas still exists. You don't negotiate with murderers.

Again, eliminate Hamaas and then rebuild. These radicals will not be satisfied until the Jews are pushed into the water and that you cannot deny.

 

[Amna]

I agree once again wolfwill, but you are missing my point, Hamas is not the only terror, the IDF commits them 2... YOu just don't know about the specifics... Who controls the specifics of the IDF, well, Sharon controls them...

So, does this mean we are going to have to Kill SHARON... This must sound harsh, doesn't it....

by the way, heres an interesting study... I presented a John PIlger video to my college, and their was a man who started yelling after the video, calling it bias.. Even though their were many Israeli's in the video, including an ex-soldier, and father who lost his daughter in a suicide attack, both against what the IDF was doing in the WB and GS... So, anyways, this man could not stop yelling... I wonder, what if this man lost his family to the Israeli Defense Force, and what if the right to be treated in a hospital and the right to learn were taken from his hands... what would he do... This man, who finds it easy to yell at a bunch of young women of showing this educational video, what would this man do if he lived in the West Bank????

By the way, how can we know how many have been unjustly murdered in the West Bank, if no Red Cross, or anyother organization is allowed in the West Bank... >????

 

[Ramu]

amna - please don't insult our intelligence with conspiracy theories. every death in the west bank is highly publicized - the IDF cannot get away with murder.

The West Bank is a war zone. Why? Because that is the base of Palestinian terrorists, who indiscriminately kill innocent Israeli civilians. If you choose to turn the tables and say that Israel is the base of Israeli terrorists, that is absolutely incorrect, because the IDF is an army that, by international law, cannot indiscriminately kill civilians. Any civilians who are killed are casualties of war, and it is a shame. But it's bound to happen - that is the law of probability. The Palestinian leadership had a chance to end it, with former President Clinton's help, and chose not to.

As far as your golden video goes, anyone can make a biased video. it doesn't matter who was in the video - there are enough people and opinions to slant anything. If you were to show a pro-israeli video, there would be protesters too. And that is what makes democracy great.

 

[wolfwill23]

This may be part of the problem...

Four Palestinian militants died late Sunday, apparently when a bomb they were planting went off in northern Gaza...Later, however, loudspeaker trucks drove through the area saying that the four died while ?fulfilling their national duty,? a phrase used in the past to announce accidental deaths.

As long as the Palestinians have the midset that bombing innocent humans is 'fulfilling their national duty,' there will be no peace.

Please don't try and spin this into it being Israel's fault that these people killed themselves.

 

[Atticus Finch]

Perhaps if the USA would demonstrate a bit more benevolence towards the Palestinian people similar to the 15 Billion Africa/Aids package this would take the issue away that "the USA is only Pro Israel."
This would in turn make the general Palestinian population less beholden to terrorists groups such as Hamas.

Atticus.

 

[Klaus]

Both sides are guilty, and it's sad to see how they educate their kids

Klaus

 

[nbcrusader]

Perhaps if the USA would demonstrate a bit more benevolence towards the Palestinian people similar to the 15 Billion Africa/Aids package this would take the issue away that "the USA is only Pro Israel."
This would in turn make the general Palestinian population less beholden to terrorists groups such as Hamas.

I hear this quite often, but find no evidence to support such a theory. Hammas wants Israel gone, not $$$.

 

[ouizy]

wolfwill23,

Would your policy be the same for any Jewish/Zionist groups that used the same tactics? that is: terror, bombings, etc.?

Of course mine would be, I would, however, like you or Amna to point out even one of these groups and then I can comment on it.

As far as Nbcrusader's comment I have to agree. Hamas has plenty of money, from the Palestinians as well as outside sources.

Imagine this:

Imagine Hamas putting these funds towards the construction of schools, hospitals, playgrounds etc. instead of detonators, cell phones, plastic explosives and other death-inflicting materials.

Hard to imagine? Damn right. Why? Because they are a large group of people created not to better the lives of their own kind, but to destroy the lives of their self-proclaimed enemies.

Why should anyone give them anything?

I will stand by my comment that they need to be eliminated by any means possible.

You can take that word for whatever you think it means, but they have to be gone. Serial killers get death sentences. Hamas is simply an organization of serial killers.

 

[Atticus Finch]

I hear this quite often, but find no evidence to support such a theory. Hammas wants Israel gone, not $$$.

Yes.
However the average Palestinian will not rise up against Hamas.
If the Palestinians saw the USA in a different light instead of the seeing the USA only Pro Israel.
The way to do is is w/broad bold steps to show that the USA is only on the side of peaceful people including Palestinians.
If Palestinian schools universities hospitals were being paid for by the USA, the average Palestinian would not feel so loyal to Hamas then perhaps.

Atticus

 

[Amna]

Well said Atticus, this is what I'm trying to say...


Ouizy and wolfwill, how many Americans are in the West Bank keeping track of all the injustice... Why not find a Palestinian and ask for thier story... My friend, who just moved here a while ago, her name is Annan, and this women can tell you a list of injustice that had happend right before her eyes.... YOu guys are sooo sure of yourself that no injustice happens to them, I really do pity you lot.... open your eyes....

I pray, and I keep on saying this, that less innocent civilians are killed in this conflict.... But, people have to start giving some "real" attention to this conflict.. People can't try and get themselves out so easily by assuming that one is at fault for all this...

 

[U2Bama]

Although I'm not sure how succesful it would be (due to the extreme situation that has built up inthe past few years), I do agree you make some good suggestions, Atticus.

But I must ask: what is an attorney from rural Maycomb (Monroeville), Alabama doing in Dublin City, Ireland, commenting ont he affairs of the world?

~U2Alabama

 

[Amna]

Read this please, this is from Amnesty International:

"Some 2,000 Palestinians have been killed, most of them unlawfully, by the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF), who routinely use F16 fighter jets, helicopter gunships and tanks to bomb and shell densely populated Palestinian residential areas. The victims included some 350 children and some 90 individuals killed in targeted state assassinations.

In the same period Palestinian armed groups have killed more than 700 Israelis, some 480 of them civilians, including some 90 children. The victims were killed in deliberate attacks, including frequent suicide bombings in buses, restaurants and other places, which specifically targeted families and other civilians."

WHY CAN'T NGO'S ETC. HELP??????????

"In this respect the international community has failed the Palestinian and Israeli victims, whose human rights have been neglected in the pursuit of a "peace and security" formula which, if achieved, cannot be durable unless based on respect for the fundamental human rights of all. As the situation continues to worsen the need for steps to be taken becomes more pressing. AI has repeatedly called for international human rights monitors to be sent to Israel and the Occupied Territories. The call has been echoed by Palestinian, Israeli and international NGOs and has been widely supported at the international level, including by the UN and EU, but the international community has failed to act in the face of ISRAEL'S REJECTION OF THE PRUPOSAL. AI does not claim that human rights observers can bring the solution to all the problems in this complex situation. However, the presence of international monitors could contribute to saving Palestinian and Israeli lives. It is not too late to make amends for past failures. "

If organisations such as AI and other NGO's could place themselves in Israel and West Bank, maybe they could also help with efforts in bringing peace???? But, I'm wondering, why won't Israeli gov't let this happen??? Why can't Red Cross and other health systems be implemented??? Damn, I"ve got so many questions...

 

[ouizy]

guys are sooo sure of yourself that no injustice happens to them, I really do pity you lot.... open your eyes.... [/B]

Amna,

Please do not misconstrue this thread, and please do not take this personally.

This thread is about the fact that a terrorist organization has put itself in the middle of peace process negotiations between a State, and a group of people who wish to become a state.

Of course I understand that there is suffering among the Palestinians, I never said there wasn't.

I do understand, also of friends in Israel who are petrified of going on a bus to school, to a store for groceries, or out to dinner on a weekend for fear of being blown up by said terrorist group.

Please do not pity me as you do not know me, nor have any reason to pity me, just understand what the argument is here, then let's continue.

 

[Amna]

Ouizy, understand this though, I'm not taking this personally, but I do not understand, and I am boggled by the fact that you lot don't see the other side to this... If you truly understood, or had any feeling for those who are suffering in the West Bank, then you would be more careful in what you said... I am not supporting any terror org., and I agree that they should be dismanteled, but I'm only giving a stratedgy that has never been used before; a strategy that focuses more on solving the problem, rather then killing a certain number of people, which really doesnt' solve the problem...

I don't know who you are, however, i do pity the fact that you are not willing to look further into this conflict...

 

[wolfwill23]

Amna, please answer the folling questions:

1. As long as Hamaas exists, will they ever stop killing innocent Israelis?

2. If answer to #1 is no, then what do you do with them?

3. If answer to #1 is yes, then please explain how they will just stop killing after being trained to hate and kill their entire lives.

Thank you.

 

[Amna]

Again, I'm really getting tired of answering the same question, over and over again... But here it goes... AND PLEASE READ WHAT I WROTE, AND TAKE A MINUTE TO TRY AND UNDERSTAND WHAT I'M SAYING... I might have a few grammer errors, since i'm at work right now, i feel very rushed..


as long as Hamas exist, or as long as people in general exist, killings will sadly never end... Killing is amongst us.... As long as Hamas exist, killings of innocent Israelis will probably continue (but the numbers could be less, if both gov't acted upon it), as long as the Sharon controled IDF exists, yes, ther will be killings of innocent Palestinians (but the numbers could be less, if both gov't acted upon it)..

HAMAS will exist for a very long time, Hamas is not a specific number of people, this organization is based on an ideology... This organization has gotten more youth to join, only b/c these youth have no schools to attend and they live in complete opression... So, Hamas, the org., takes these kids and supposably gives them something to look forward 2... Heaven . These kids have nothing to lose, they have already lost everything around them, they see this org. as an only hope.

I truly believe, that who ever instructs Hamas, should be locked up for good, or yes, he deserves death... But, what will this accomplish, someone else will decide to take continue hamas, or make another one... As long as Hamas creates an excuse to operate, then yes, peoople will join this organization... But, if substantial impovement is given in the territory, and I mean schools built, hospitals built, etc. etc. (these facilities being built by the help of outsiders (literally being built)), then these kids will see that their is more to live for, and that their are other people who care, americans who care...

The Road to Peace, is one of the many other peace treaties given, and I hope this one works... But before planning it, Americans' and other countries need to give the Palestinians proof that this will follow through... Wether this proof is shown through giving Red Cross aid, or letting organizations such as Amnesty into this area... The Palestinian government has no solid assets to rely on, they need help to rebuild themselves b4 they can help rebuild the West Bank... So, it is probably best that some immediate help be given to the Palestinians, this way, Hamas will surely be dismantled.. And if Hamas is dismantled, then, I beleive that the Israelis will live more peacefully.. As for attacks, before occupation had occured, were their any attacks????? From my research, I believe not....

 

[ouizy]

Amna,

I can only speak for myself, but I have to say I understand and do not totally disagree with your ideas for peace, nor do I disagree that there have been injustices on both sides.

My only contention here is that I started this thread with the idea that negotiations with terror groups are ridiculous.

That said, today the three major Palestinian terror groups; Hamas, the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, and Islamic Jihad have agreed to a three month cease-fire.

Now this is good news for the Israelis who will not have to worry about being blown up while buying a banana, and it is fairly good news for the "peace process," but I stand by my thought that this should have no bearing on negotiations between the Palestinians and the Israelis. These are criminals, killers, and animals.

You do not negotiate with hate groups. I am trying to think of a good example, and I forgot which state it is, but one of the southern states still has on its flag the original graphic from the Confederacy. There is debate about taking it off the flag. Now imagine if during the negotiations the Ku Klux Klan was on one side of the barganing table. They are a hate group who would love to see that image remain on the flag as to some it represents all that was wrong in this country regarding slavery. It makes no sense.

I say congratualtions to the Israelis for getting the three month window to be able to leave their houses without the fear of bombs, but I will be damned before I thank Hamas, the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, or Islamic Jihad for doing what they did.

Now it is time to move along the process and each side will have to make some tough descisions and give up some ground so there can be a Palestinian State and freedom from terrorism and oppression in that region.