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Old 06-17-2003, 05:10 AM   #16
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Israel has an economy..it has ways to education their ppl and opportunities for them
The main reason the Palestinians don't have a strong economy or opportunities for their people is that they live under occupation. I agree terrorism is absolutely not in the interests of the Palestinian people, but equally, living under occupation is not in their interests and a peace process which demands an end to Palestinian terrorism while making no demand on Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories can't be successful.

(I know you weren't suggesting that, Arun, I just used your comment as a starting point for what I wanted to say.)
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Old 06-17-2003, 11:31 AM   #17
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What economy did the Palestinians have before the "occupation"?

If neighboring Arab countries contributed to the health and welfare of Palestinians instead of providing weapons, explosives and reward money for suicide bomber families, I bet the Palestinians would be better off.
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Old 06-18-2003, 10:20 PM   #18
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It frusturates me that all these neighboring Arab/ Muslim countries don't do enough to help Palestinians recover..
My dream would be that as their is a European Union, there would be a Middle-East Union, that could be strong enough to topple destructive leaders, or help recover developing countries... Without the West butting in... But, I think we all know that in order for this to happen, each country has to achieve a certain Infrastructure level... And in order for this to happen, these governments need to prioritize their needs, build education, build health care systems, protect their water, etc. etc. Without this, their infrastructure would be weak, thus destroying their social structure... With this in mind, this would also require fair treatment by world powers in trade, aid, etc.

I agree with Klaus that even though Hamas is an organization, it is also an ideology that arises b/c of a certain comman opression... I think one mistake that the US has on the war on terrorism, is conquering terrorism through focusing on numbers rather then filling in the communication gap that is b/w the West and the Middle East.
Lets just say Hamas is disabled, then what happens, another org. will form... The reason why terrorism occurs in this world is b/c people (kids mainly) who have been opressed in a certain environment, are left with no where to go, so they are taken in by these organizations that are focused on agression ignited by ignorence... If these Kids had proper schools to go to, or families to go back home to, I could gaurantee you, that many would think twice before killing themselves along with innocent civilians. If they have EDUCATION, FREEDOM OF TRAVEL and voice, WATER, HOSPITALS, JOBS, then these people would have something to live for...
Hamas has a lot of power, but the Israeli government had the power to destroy schools, hospitals, and block water from the WB and GS... This has given the excuse for Violent organizations, such as Hamas, as to retailiate in an unexcusable manner. It has also given the chance for Hamas to bring in more kids, b/c these kids don't have schools to attend...

I only pray that some facilities can be given to the Palestinians, some sort of education, some sort of "real" support... Thus, this would call for less innocent Israelis and Palestinians to die....

A lot of people have to keep in mind that this conflict is complex, and it is not fair to take sides... Because on one side someone is suffering injustice, just as the other side... This conflict is complex, and for anyone who is willing to jump to one side, that only means that they have a lot more to learn about the conflict.

peace

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Old 06-19-2003, 07:24 AM   #19
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It frusturates me that all these neighboring Arab/ Muslim countries don't do enough to help Palestinians recover..
My dream would be that as their is a European Union, there would be a Middle-East Union, that could be strong enough to topple destructive leaders, or help recover developing countries... Without the West butting in
And a dream it will remain. I'm assuming, which is always dangerous, that you consider Israel a 'western' country. So, 'western' intervention would be inherent. Last time I checked, Israel is in the middle east. Israel would have to be included in this union. Considering Israel isn't even on the maps of schoolchildren learning geography in the middle east, this dream union will never happen.

Also, what do you consider the OIC and OPEC(not a great example) ? they are organizations that encompass many of the middle eastern countries. and frankly, they are worthless in resolving conflict.

The communication gap that was mentioned only arises because the majority of arabs don't want to listen. or perhaps your point was that americans don't realize the arab point of view. well, considering the bombardment of media items about the middle east, i think we have a pretty good idea about the culture. in the end, we listen and we talk - america is a pluralist society. and yet, they still hate us. communication has nothing to do with terrorism.

hamas(and related org's) wants the total destruction of the jewish state and people. i don't think education and facilties will solve that problem. it'll detract supporters, but it won't solve the problem. the idea is not for less people to die - it is for no people to die.
the whole idea of justifying killing with poverty is absurd. if your argument were valid, there would be senseless suicide bombings in every poor country in the world.

bottom line - if the state of palestine were established, money will pour in. after all, if it is bad for muslims to invest in america, etc. then there surely must be a lot of money left over that can go to palestine. let's see if the arabs match talk with action/money.

nbcrusader, good call - money's got to come from somewhere to get all those guns and explosives.
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Old 06-19-2003, 10:06 AM   #20
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well put,

a quick thought this rainy morning is that it is truly unbeleivable that for any peace negotiation to take place, terrorist organizations need to be consulted.

that is like barganning with a kidnapper.

they must be ignored and eliminated.
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Old 06-19-2003, 02:52 PM   #21
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Ramu, well, terrorism is found in every part of the world... People might not kill themselves, but they do commit crimes against society...

Beleive me, if these KIDS had schools to go to, and doctors to see, they wouldn't be as suseptable to joining organizations such as this... We are not talking about animals, we are talking about regular children facing severe opression... we are talking about kids who have seen so many people killed infront of them.... Think about it...

These are human beings we are talking about.. We must try and figure out what influences them to do the things that they do...
Here in the US, we never hear of the thousends of cases where children and innocent people have been killed.... But it happens...


And as for Israel joining a ME Union, I think that would be very interesting... Sure, Sharon would never want that to happen... But, look at countries such as Jordan and Egypt, they may not be happy go lucky with Israel, but they have struggled to make formal peace with them... I bet that a union would never be formed, but theirs no harm in wishing that their was...



BY THE WAY, the communication gap needs to be filled over here in the West ... Just the other day, a man was harassing my family, cussing at us b/c we were Muslims... I have seen this a lot... Growing up here, I have been harassed by my peers, my scarf has been pulled off a few times... People have yelled at my family publicly, numerous of times.... My friends have been beaten up for wearing the hijab.... NOt to long ago, I recieved a letter saying, "Go back to where you came from, savage".... I'm not trying to pity myself... But obviously, people need to learn a little more about the Islamic culture...
I was also asigned a book to read in class called, "Nine parts of Desire", in that book, the author was talking about a woman who decided to wear the hijab, and the author descirbed it as a beautiful woman who had suddenly become dull.... These are just a few of the many example where i see a gap in communication... I'm a Muslim living in the US... FRANKLY, I think I would be able to tell you if I thought there was not a communication gap.... People here dont' respect the fact that just as America has developed, every country expereinces levels of developement... America must give a certain amount of respect for countries that are trying to develope (socially, politically, and economically)...
-------------------------------------------------
As for money... I think states should consintrate more in providing assets such as facilities, rather then providing hard cash... Palestine, whatever it may be, is nothing but a camp of tents and rubble... Of course special attention needs to put brought into this area.

I only pray that less money is invested in weapons, wether it be in Palestine or Israel... But, if people (Muslim countries, and the US) invest wisely, I think things could be a whole lot better...

I beleive that not only are muslim countries guilty of invesiting in weapons, but look at the US... Who provided Saddam Hussein and bin Laden with weapons, the US did... Who provided Israel with weapons, the US did... What did this accomplish, destruction...
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Old 06-19-2003, 04:42 PM   #22
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the ease with which some of you are throwing around terms like "elimination" and "destroy" in reference to human beings makes me distinctly uncomfortable. It reminds me of a line in a song that says "you become a monster so the monster will not break you". Yes, the violence needs to stop. But perpetuating the cycle of violence doesn't seem to me to be the way to go.
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Old 06-19-2003, 04:54 PM   #23
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I agree with you 100% sula.
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Old 06-19-2003, 06:30 PM   #24
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RAmu and Ouizy, if it is as easy to say that the US has perfect understanding of Arab/Muslim Culture, then let me ask you, (for example) why has the soldiers in Iraq been faced with such unpredictable suprises by the people of Iraq... The American gov't never did a full research on what and who they were attacking....

I'm just trying to say that one shouldn't solely depend on the American media (and vice-versa for the ME) to create an understanding of the other culture...

by the way, Sula, you put things into real perspective, thankyou.
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Old 06-19-2003, 09:35 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by sulawesigirl4
the ease with which some of you are throwing around terms like "elimination" and "destroy" in reference to human beings makes me distinctly uncomfortable. It reminds me of a line in a song that says "you become a monster so the monster will not break you". Yes, the violence needs to stop. But perpetuating the cycle of violence doesn't seem to me to be the way to go.
Ideally, I would like to see the effective "elimination" of all of the world's hate groups/terrorist organizations from existence, such as Hamas, the Ku Klux Klan, and many, many others. Also ideally, I would like to see this done without any bloodshed/violence. Realistically, some lives may be lost for this to happen, and that is truly tragic. But I think the world would be a better place without the organizations like Hamas and the Ku Klux Klan. They are more than an idea. They are the perpetuation of violence. Yes, situations need to change so that these groups have no more complaints, but if we were to meet those situations on their terms, it would mean the elimination of non-Arabs from the Middle East and the elimination of everyone other than white Christians from the U.S.A. Those are repulsive "ideas" which I have a hard time accepting or tolerating.

~U2Alabama
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Old 06-19-2003, 09:40 PM   #26
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u2bama - you're on the money.

i'll try to stay on topic:
can someone please explain why hamas is at the negotiating table? with their stated purpose, what is the point of talking to them? they cannot be dissuaded.

with such people, force is the only answer.
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Old 06-19-2003, 10:15 PM   #27
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Originally posted by sulawesigirl4
the ease with which some of you are throwing around terms like "elimination" and "destroy" in reference to human beings makes me distinctly uncomfortable. ...
We must eliminate and destroy terrorist organizations and their members. By not eliminating and destroying them, we risk the lives of innocent people, many of whom are free of hate.

The radicals are trained to HATE from birth. I have read about text books in Saudi Arabia that preach the killing of Jews. I believe this condition of hate is very difficult to break in these individuals. And how do you rehabilite somebody who wants nothing more to blow himself up at the Gap (what a sad way to go)?

I'm sorry, but pre-emption is a good thing and elimination and destruction is exactly what every person who is willing to kill innocent people needs. If they want to be martyrs then I think we should be willing to help them.
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Old 06-19-2003, 10:42 PM   #28
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I'll stand by my statement 100%. Actually, I think you just proved me correct. If you're willing to let go of the notions of justice and the rights of humans to life in the name of preserving those freedoms, then it looks as if you've just lost the war to the terrorists.
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Old 06-19-2003, 10:56 PM   #29
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Originally posted by sulawesigirl4
If you're willing to let go of the notions of justice and the rights of humans to life in the name of preserving those freedoms, then it looks as if you've just lost the war to the terrorists.
Innocent people are being hunted like animals and killed by a group of radical, lawless savages who have twisted a religion into something of their fancy. As long as this continues to happen, we must do everything in our power to stop these people before they have a chance to kill us. How would you feel if we let Padillia out of jail and then he detonated a dirty bomb? What if he detonated it in your town? What if you or someone close to you was a victim? Do you think Padillia would get a job as a crossing guard if he was released? C'mon, please.

The way to lose the war against terror is to go easy on these people. In my opinion, I think we should do more in tracking these people down and locking them up. At the same time, we should secure our borders. A lot of these problems we are now experiencing would never even make their way into the country if the INS was worth anything.

However, once the war is over, the threat eliminted and destroyed, we do need to give these people some hope. We (the free and prosperous world together) should build infrastructure in these villages. These people should have hospitals, schools and other basic services that we take for granted.

But as long as there is an imminent threat to me, my family and my country, imo, we need to be tough on these people. Like I said before, if they want to be martyrs, then we should help them with that.
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Old 06-19-2003, 11:09 PM   #30
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"But as long as there is an imminent threat to me, my family and my country, imo, we need to be tough on these people." -wolfwill

Hmmmm, this is what some of these "terrorists" are saying in response to the many innocent killed within their territory by the Western powers..
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