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Old 12-21-2005, 07:15 AM   #1
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A lawyer defending al Qaida-linked suspects standing trial for the 2003 suicide bombings in Istanbul told a court that jihad, or holy war, was an obligation for Muslims and his clients should not be prosecuted.

"If you punish them for this, tomorrow, will you punish them for fasting or for praying?” Osman Karahan—a lawyer representing 14 of the 72 suspects—asked during a nearly four-hour speech in which he read religious texts from an encyclopedia of Islam.
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in the face of the defender of such evil

Im thinking that these guys could probably get a better lawyer, for instance somebody who will show the court that they are not only innocent, but guilty of being not guilty.

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Old 12-21-2005, 07:17 AM   #2
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Question: does this qualify as vilification of the Islamic faith?
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Old 12-21-2005, 07:26 AM   #3
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Old 12-21-2005, 08:01 AM   #4
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That's a really silly argument, since Turkey operates on secular laws. You might get away with that in Saudi Arabia, but even then, I doubt it.

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Old 12-21-2005, 08:08 AM   #5
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Is Turkey the only secular country with Muslim majority ?
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Old 12-21-2005, 08:10 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by AcrobatMan
Is Turkey the only secular country with Muslim majority ?
Let me rephrase it.

Are there other countries apart from TURKEY that have muslim majority and still is SECULAR ?
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Old 12-21-2005, 08:12 AM   #7
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Malaysia.

Well, relatively secular.
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Old 12-21-2005, 08:18 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by AcrobatMan
Is Turkey the only secular country with Muslim majority ?
Turkey is the only secular democracy in the Middle East. It only fared so well, because Turkey asserted its independence prior to World War II and the Cold War. When nations like Iran were asserting their independence in the 1950s, we just beat them down and propped up a "friendly dictatorship"...which was then overthrown in the 1979 Islamic Revolution.

Nations like Syria, Libya, and Egypt are best described as "secular dictatorships," and Afghanistan and Iraq are trying their hand at democracy, but still haven't grasped the idea of secularism quite yet. The Kurds in Iraq, however, have a good tradition in secularism, perhaps because of Turkey's indirect influence (since they hate each other) just to the north.

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Old 12-21-2005, 09:06 AM   #9
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Indonesia comes to mind. Largest Muslim population in the world. Relatively democratic government.
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Old 12-21-2005, 10:39 AM   #10
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so if someone burns religious books in

"Syria, Libya, and Egypt "

Indonesia and Malaysia


Wont he or she get DEATH penalty for buring the book depending (on which religious book he has actually burned)
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Old 12-21-2005, 12:23 PM   #11
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These terrorists can't go anywhere with this argument in secular Turkey. The Islamic concept of "jihad" is a personal struggle against sin, not holy war. Interpreting it as "holy war" is called "folk Islam" and isn't accepted by any reputable Islamic scholar.
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Old 12-22-2005, 03:52 AM   #12
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"I'd like to ask for a bad court thingie."
"You mean a mistrial?"
"Yeah!"
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Old 12-22-2005, 07:10 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by verte76
These terrorists can't go anywhere with this argument in secular Turkey. The Islamic concept of "jihad" is a personal struggle against sin, not holy war. Interpreting it as "holy war" is called "folk Islam" and isn't accepted by any reputable Islamic scholar.
It took me less than two minutes to find statements that killing non-Muslims who are actively involved in destroying Islam and the Muslims to be not only allowed but commendable (source), a straight statement that Jihad is the Arabic equivalent for Holy War link . These views are not limited to a minority at the same scale as Fred Phelps and they are obviously taken seriously by the many tens of thousands of commited jihadist fighters all over the world (Chechnya, Gaza, Afghanistan, Mindanao, Kashmir etc). There is a serious problem in the world we live in. I do not think that the solution is having to preface every other word about the Islamic faith with Religion of Peace and then setting up a blanket statement about how every religion has its fanatics (as if that excuses it somehow). I do not think such views are held by anything other than a devoted literalist minority. But I also think that that small minority has an actionable component who can and do kill for their beliefs, actively propagate their ideology and seek to bring the entire world under their anti-human ideology, they would threaten the majority of humanity believer and unbeliever across every faith and land if they had their way.

It is made clear that Jihad against naafs is a legitimate form of Jihad. There are also some severely ambiguous statements (e.g. when somebody asks about wanting to wage Physical War against the US, Israel and India they are told that it should be considered with broad consultation - not with an explicity no, violence is prohibited in Islam or sumsuch).

There are thousands of statements made by clerics including some very high profile "moderates" who are embraced warmly by western progressives when these religious leaders stand vehemently opposed to the ideals of the progressive movement.

Check out Ask the Imam for all your hilarious religiousity needs

Here are a selection of fine Q and A
Quote:
I wish to inquire as to what the arabic term for holy war is. In the media that I came across lately, Jihad was used as term of reference which I understand is incorrect.

The Arabic equivalent for holy war is Jihaad.

and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best

Mufti Ebrahim Desai
Quote:
I have a question about offensive Jihad. Does it mean that we are to attack even those non-Muslims which don't do anything against Islam just because we have to propagate Islam?

You should understand that we as Muslims firmly believe that the person who doesn't believe in Allah as he is required to, is a disbeliever who would be doomed to Hell eternally. Thus one of the primary responsibilities of the Muslim ruler is to spread Islam throughout the world, thus saving people from eternal damnation.

Thus what is meant by the passage in Tafsir Uthmani, is that if a country doesn't allow the propagation of Islam to its inhabitants in a suitable manner or creates hindrances to this, then the Muslim ruler would be justifying in waging Jihad against this country, so that the message of Islam can reach its inhabitants, thus saving them from the Fire of Jahannum. If the Kuffaar allow us to spread Islam peacefully, then we would not wage Jihad against them.
Quote:
Can we do business with jews, Is it allow have business relationship with them.

To do business with Jews is permissible for a Muslim. It is not permissible to maintain a bosom relationship with them.
Quote:
many muslims priase Hitler for killing jews, shoud they or are they wrong.

Islam has ordered us Muslims to fight against the enemies of Islam and not be like the Jew and make other nations fight their wars. We as Muslims may share in Hitlers hatered for the Jews but we cannot praise him for the manner in which he went about killing the jews (if the history books are correct). But rather we as Muslims are governed by the Shariah which prohibit the killing the old and the weak etc.
Quote:
Is Osamah bin Laden is really a hero of Islamic Ummah? Do Taliban government of Afghanistan done right by demolishing the Buddah statues?

1. Usama ibn Laden is a practising Muslim, and thus, our brother in Islam.
He has made many sacrifices for the Deen, in particular, the Jihaad of
Afghanistan. While we respect him for this, we do not raise any person to
any position, except that which Allah Ta'ala wishes.
2. He himself has denied involvement. Why should we then doubt him? Even if
a billion Kuffaar say the opposite, the word of a single practising Muslim
is more acceptable to us.
3. It was an Islamic duty for the Taliban to have destroyed the idols.
Quote:
Could you please give me a detailed analysis of what a Virgin women should do after being raped.

If a female was raped due to her not maintaining the laws of Hijaab, she is
partly to be blamed as the rapist will be considered as being seduced by her
revealing form and shape. She should make Tawbah (sincerely repent) by also
adhering to the laws of Hijaab.

and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best

Mufti Ebrahim Desai
FATWA DEPT.
Mufti Ebrahim Desai, what a bastard he also holds that Music is a sin against God and has verse to justify it.

Check out MEMRI for many other fun filled videos from all over the Middle East involving a wide range of commentators making points that are at least as harsh covering a wide range of topical issues.

They may not be reputable, but they are obviously getting a few hearts and minds and that is a very frightening thing

And you know it really pisses me off when fucks who expouse this sort of thing get protection from criticism by well intentioned people who decry it as racism or cultural insensitivity. How on earth can Islam itself be dissociated from terror and all manner of human rights abuses in the eyes of most people when an open dialogue to seperate the good from the bad is impossible? It just feels so impossibly counter-productive and insular and for the life of me I cannot think who benefits, ignorant bigots remain ignorant bigots and the middle line of the population tunes in every once in a while when some cleric mouths off about a case of pack rape being the womans fault, any positive messages and actions get lost in the background and it all becomes very misrepresented indeed.
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Old 12-27-2005, 08:26 PM   #14
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I was just going over islamonline.net and found a statement by Yusaf Al-Quradawi on spending Zakah on Jihad in the cause of Allah
Quote:
The meaning of Jihad in our present time particularly refers to striving to liberate Muslim lands from the grip of the disbelievers who usurped them and imposed on them their own laws in lieu of the Divine Law. Those disbelievers may be Jews, Christians or both or even pagans, who follow no particular religion at all. Disbelievers are all alike.

Capitalists, Communists, Westerners, Easterners, People of the Book and pagans are by no means different from one other. They should all be fiercely fought if they attempt to occupy any part of the Muslim land. This duty falls on those closest to the occupied land, who should be aided by those closest to them, who, in turn, ought to be aided by those closest to them, till it becomes incumbent on all Muslims to take part in Jihad.

Muslims have never been more severely afflicted than they are nowadays. Many of their lands have been captured by the disbelievers, on top of which is Palestine that has fallen victim to corrupt Jews. Similarly, Kashmir has been dominated by pagan Hindus. Chechnya and other Islamic states have fallen in the grip of pagan tyrannical communism.

Retrieving these lands, freeing them from the clutches of atheists and their twisted laws is the joint responsibility of all Muslims. Declaring Jihad to save our land is an Islamic obligation.

If war is waged anywhere to achieve this goal, namely to free the occupied lands of the laws and the tyranny of disbelievers, it is undoubtedly a case of Jihad for the sake of Allah. It thus needs to be financed from the money of Zakah, the amount of which is to be decided based on the total sum of the charity, the requirements of Jihad as well as the degree of the need of other potential recipients of charity. This is all to be decided by reliable scholars, if they are to be found.
He is widely considered to be the voice of "moderate Islam" by many around the globe (Ken Livingstone for instance) , he is a respected conservative Scholar - and he advocates physical war, killing of Israeli children, execution of homosexuals and female circumcision. I think that calling the idea of physical holy war an interperatation that no reputable Islamic scholar accepts is falsified by the statements made by respected scholars that are a matter of public record and the ongoing instances of holy war being waged all over the world against various "unbelievers".

I do not think that support for physical jihad by these scholars is the rule or the exception to the rule. I think it is a view that is out there and may not be too divorced from the reality of the source material.
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Old 12-28-2005, 09:36 AM   #15
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There was a guy on BBC ( I think on hard talk) who said -

if he had a chance, he would become a suicide bomber in Tel Aviv

he also justified suicide bombing by 2 britons in Israel..

What i simply dont understand - why was this guy ( or such guys) not arrested or is not arrested. Apparently he lives in London.

Sorry I dont remember the name..and I dont have any links...
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