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Old 08-20-2004, 07:23 PM   #46
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Originally posted by Lilac
and here is a story that actually admits it happens but denies we need laws to stop it!

http://www.the-aps.org/pa/action/news/petsafety.htm
Did you read the entire thing?

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Akaka claims that Class B dealers acquire "tens of thousands of dogs and cats," and that "many" of these animals are "family pets" obtained from middle-men who "resort to theft and deception as they collect animals and sell them to Class B dealers." It is unlikely however that any such complaints have emanated from Sen. Akaka's constituents since according to the USDA's most recent Animal Welfare Act annual report only one cat and no dogs were used in research, teaching, or testing in the state of Hawaii in 2002.

Unfortunately, S. 2346 is predicated on many factual errors. Reading Akaka's statement, one might believe that there is a massive problem in this country of stolen pets ending up in research facilities. It is true that claims along these lines have been a rallying cry among animal activists since the 1960s. However, Congress, the USDA, and the research community have worked together since then to make significant changes that should reassure the American public about the safety of family pets.

Furthermore, even as provisions to assure pet safety have been implemented, the numbers of dogs and cats used in research has steadily declined. In 1973 when the USDA first collecting statistics, approximately 195,000 dogs and 66,000 cats were used in research, teaching, and testing. In 1993, that number had declined to 106,000 dogs and nearly 34,000 cats. By 2002, the numbers had declined further to some 68,000 dogs and 24,000 cats. These totals represent all dogs and cats including those supplied by animal breeders, pounds and shelters, and random source animal dealers. The number of animals needed for research should also be compared with what is conservatively estimated as several million unwanted dogs and cats that are put to death in pounds each year.

Many research institutions are located where there are state laws, local ordinances, or internal policies to prohibit pounds and shelters from providing animals for research. Class B dealers provide a necessary service by supplying them with animals that breeders cannot produce. S. 2346 would not only prohibit Class B dealers from supplying these animals, it would also require pounds and shelters to register with the USDA in order to do so. Going through a registration process in order to perform a public service may be one hurdle too many for hard-pressed pounds and shelters, and some may decide that it is not worth their effort.

The Laboratory Animal Welfare Act was originally passed in 1966 to protect family pets from unscrupulous animal dealers. Congress has since approved a number of new pet protection provisions as part of what is now known as the Animal Welfare Act. Over the past decade, the USDA has significantly stepped up its enforcement efforts, putting a number of non-compliant animal dealers out of business. This includes frequent inspections of problem dealers and audits of their records to trace dogs and cats back to the individuals listed on identification records as the original owner. The success rate of such trace back audits is now around 96%. These enforcement efforts should be continued, but no new legislation is needed to assure the safety of family pets.
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Old 08-20-2004, 07:29 PM   #47
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Originally posted by Lilac
As long as animal research is common and accepted this will continue to happen. Even the animals who were not stolen or were not pets still suffer. I will have to look again for links that prove that most research is not for life saving medicine but for some very frivilous and unnecessary reasons (like the squirrel poo) I am about searched out for now, I will try it later.
Would studying the squirrel poo harm the squirrel in any way?

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And yes I do agree with people who say that there has to be a better way than inflicting torture on animals.
I would be glad to hear what you've come up with.

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It may not be long before the homeless and abandoned elderly are used too. In Scotland hundreds of years ago people were arreseted for digging up bodies from cemetaries for sale to the local medical school.
What? We've come a long way since then, don't you think? Why would we suddenly take giant steps backwards? Not to mention the stink EVERYONE including the government would make about this sort of thing. The government won't even allow research on tiny clumps of stem cells. It's never, ever going to happen. I made a stink about unfounded arguments earlier, but this one is beyond the pale.
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Old 08-20-2004, 09:19 PM   #48
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I'm not surprised there wasn't much evidence found of animals being bought from dealers who stole them. I mean, like I said no questions asked. I'm sure no dealers ever say "here's some dogs I stole out of people's backyards where's my money!" then they record in their books "24 dogs purchased from dealer who stole them from their owners!" of course there wouldn't be a paper trail of such things. I'm not saying the labs are aware of where the pets came from, but I am saying they likely don't care and don't ask. You ignore the other 6 links I posted where it is obvious and well known that class b dealers do this and it is common practice.
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Old 08-20-2004, 09:21 PM   #49
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I'm also not surprised that it is being denied or made to look insignificant. Two reasons: no one who could do anything really cares, and MONEY always wins out over compassion.
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Old 08-20-2004, 11:25 PM   #50
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Originally posted by Lilac
I will have to look again for links that prove that most research is not for life saving medicine but for some very frivilous and unnecessary reasons (like the squirrel poo)
You may be searching for a long time. Forever, in fact.

I will guarantee you right now that you will not get any kind of reputable source saying that MOST animal research is unecessary.

Frankly, what offends me is when people who are not scientists and who have never conducted any sort of work in molecular biology nor stepped foot in a research laboratory telling me what it is that most of us are doing. It's incredibly offensive.

I will tell you what the people on my floor are doing with animal research.

The lab around the corner is studying neuroblastoma - you might want to look it up, it's a cancer that strikes children with one of the highest mortality rates. When it recurrs, it is essentially something like 98% mortality rate.

The lab next to us studies juvenile diabetes and they actually discovered a correlation between feeding your baby cow's milk early on in life (before 4-6 months of age) and the early onset of juvenile diabetes. They do their work on mice.

My lab is investigating three things using mice, and one using rabbits. The mice experiments are used to 1. develop anti-leukemia drugs for childhood leukemias, 2. to develop blockers against solid tumors and 3. to develop a new breast cancer medicine targeted at women with highly invasive cancer for whom tamoxifen is ineffective. The rabbits are also used for this purpose.

Finally, the fourth lab is studying children who have a genetic mutation which predisposes them to having unnaturally high cholesterol early on in life, resulting in heart attacks and strokes. They use hamsters in their research.

So, please don't tell me most of our work is unnecessary. It's absurd. Go to one of these places and educate yourself a little about what people are doing and why.
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Old 08-21-2004, 10:07 AM   #51
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Anitram, since you are so experienced in this area, could you tell me if you think there is another way to conduct this research? Is there any tecnology which could be used thereby, decreasing the amount of research conducted on animals?
Also, I am interested to know where the animals come from that are used in this research. That is if don't mind disclosing that information.
Could you also describe what happens to these animals when the research is complete?
Also, is there a time limit on the amount of research conducted on each animal, or does it continue until the animal is so mutilated that is no longer considered useable?
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Old 08-21-2004, 10:18 AM   #52
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Originally posted by ThatGuy




Is this a reason to end animal testing, or a reason to change the way in whcih they receive their specimens?
exactly. Saying that animal testing is responsible for stolen pets and should discontinue is like saying gas stations are responsible for stolen children and they should all be shut down and by the way anyone who uses a gas station indirectly supports babies being stolen.

The only time I've ever heard of pets being stolen for research before this was in that Beethoven dog movie. And like anitram said, you should try and see how animals in labs are kept. When I went to see my cat a few times before taking him home, I had to have people with the right access let me in, soap my hands and arms, wear a labcoat and booties, etc, etc just to pet my cat!

I don't support theft of any kind, but if someone likes to leave their precious dear pets roaming the neighborhood and not kept inside and sheltered where they belong, they probably were taken to a better, healthier, safer life in a lab. I dunno, but if I ever saw a "free to good home" ad, I'd never just give my cat away! He's my dearest pet and will be by my side until the day he dies. The problem here besides pets being stolen is people getting pets who can't care for them or people shipping off unwanted pets to shelters. Now if anything's unfair, I'd be worried about this.
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