i like PETA but sometimes their tactics can be extreme - Page 3 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 08-20-2004, 05:41 PM   #31
Refugee
 
ThatGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Vertigo
Posts: 1,277
Local Time: 12:44 PM
You have every right to make unfounded accusations. If you won't, or can't, prove them, then that's your issue. And I won't call you a liar if you don't call me stupid.

And, again (as I think you and I have already had a similar discussion), people's fears based on "common knowledge" aren't evidence of anything but people's capacity to be afraid and their willingness to assign blame for random events.
__________________

__________________
ThatGuy is offline  
Old 08-20-2004, 05:45 PM   #32
The Fly
 
Sheltie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: somewhere in time
Posts: 237
Local Time: 08:44 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by ThatGuy
Anecdotal evedence is nice, but completely unprovable. And are you suggesting that all animal tests are run this way? And if yes, then wouldn't the solution be to place some restrictions on testing rather than just banning it outright?

You're making a lot of unfounded claims about what animal research is really all about. I'd be more inclined to believe you if you presented some evidence.
Can you present some evidence to support your claims?
__________________

__________________
Sheltie is offline  
Old 08-20-2004, 05:49 PM   #33
Refugee
 
ThatGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Vertigo
Posts: 1,277
Local Time: 12:44 PM
Which claims are you referring to?
__________________
ThatGuy is offline  
Old 08-20-2004, 06:20 PM   #34
The Fly
 
Lilac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 231
Local Time: 11:44 PM
Can you prove this DIDN'T happen?
__________________
Lilac is offline  
Old 08-20-2004, 06:26 PM   #35
The Fly
 
Lilac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 231
Local Time: 11:44 PM
I have no google link for this, and even if I did I have the feeling you'd disregard it. I had a friend, a man I knew personally, who came home from work one day and discovered his two Golden Retrievers were missing. They were found several days later in a town 2 states and almost 400 miles away. How did they get there? They didn't walk. There was no evidence but the local cops told the guy when he came to pick them up the most likely scenario was that it was people who kidnap friendly pet dogs to sell to research labs and for some reason felt the heat and ditched them like so much contraband. They said it had happened before. That is my personal experience, on top of everything else I've heard and seen and told about.

Again I make no claims that EVERY lab operates this way, only that such things have happened and it is not uncommon.
__________________
Lilac is offline  
Old 08-20-2004, 06:32 PM   #36
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,289
Local Time: 03:44 PM
Lilac, you clearly have no idea just how the regulations regarding animal research have tightened in the last decade or so. Right now in Canada, we have separate federal, regional and local laws concerning research and they have to be followed to the letter or you will lose your license. People have to undergo training and security in the animal facilities is so high that you have to have specially issued cards to get in. Not only that, but no two people can simultaneously get in and get out of the facility at the same time, for security reasons. Add to that the many, many hours of training you have to receive and not to mention the fact you have to be certified before you're even allowed access.

Great care is taken to treat the animals humanely. The story you are referring to is completely inconsistent and maybe one in a million for all you know.

In fact, if you ever worked in an animal research lab you will know that the number one priority is to protect the animals from us, not the other way around. They live in entirely sterile environments and it sometimes takes us 2 hours to properly shower and gown up to even access the rooms with the cages.

Animal research was completely different decades ago than it is now. Do I feel great when I have to sacrifice a mouse for an experiment? No, not particularly. But I'm a scientist and I can see the bigger picture, and the results.

As for the argument about funding - please. Have you ever actually applied for grants? If you want to make the argument that animal research brings you more money for a grant, it is relatively moot, because what's really hot is the use of primary cells derived from human sources (blood, organs, tissues).
__________________
anitram is offline  
Old 08-20-2004, 06:40 PM   #37
Refugee
 
ThatGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Vertigo
Posts: 1,277
Local Time: 12:44 PM
No, I can't prove that what you described antecdotally didn't happen. Then again, I could tell you that I have purple skin and come from a planet several light years away. Prove to me that it's not true. You can make any claim that you want, but if it's unverifiable it really has little use as an argument.

Your story about your friend is very sad. I am definitely against people's pets being kidnapped. But is it a reason to ban animal testing? Wouldn't it be better to place better controls on it rather than ban it outright?

My real point was this:
Quote:
Animal testing gets far out of hand when much of it is done unnecessarily or excessively, especially in cases where holding onto funding is the main objective and not the cure for any disease.
You said this without backing it up at all. I honestly want to know if this is true, or just a generalization.
__________________
ThatGuy is offline  
Old 08-20-2004, 06:44 PM   #38
The Fly
 
Lilac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 231
Local Time: 11:44 PM
If you say there are new rules, maybe that explains why I don't hear so much about this as I used to. But aren't you in Canada, the US might not have these laws.

I found a link that mentions stolen pets being sold to research labs:

http://www.stolenpets.com/

read the whole site but this part is the 'evidence' I was looking for:

http://www.stolenpets.com/theft_01.htm

PETA has a lot on unnecessary experiments involving pets, but no need to post those links since anyone who needs evidence hates PETA so much they'd disregard it anyway.

Anitram, while your employer may be researching cures for diseases, there are still a lot of experiments going on that really aren't important and a lot of animals are suffering. The funding? Come on haven't you heard the pork barrel tales of people getting gov't funding to research the smell of squirrel doo and stuff like that? I'm sure there are a lot of grants out there and a lot of money people can get if they keep up some frivilous experiment. This may keep them employed but it's not worth the suffering of live creatures.
__________________
Lilac is offline  
Old 08-20-2004, 06:46 PM   #39
The Fly
 
Sheltie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: somewhere in time
Posts: 237
Local Time: 08:44 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by ThatGuy
Which claims are you referring to?
That animals are not stolen from families and placed in research labs and that they do not suffer horrible abuse by researchers. Also, that research is only used for testing medicine.
I would also like to know why you seem to think we are better than animals. Is this because we can talk and they can't. Do you believe that because of this they deserve to suffer? You also stated we are at the top of the food chain. Excuse me, but I think a tiger and bear could kill and eat me before I could kill and eat him or her. So you may need to rethink that issue.
__________________
Sheltie is offline  
Old 08-20-2004, 06:52 PM   #40
The Fly
 
Sheltie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: somewhere in time
Posts: 237
Local Time: 08:44 PM
Visit www.peta.org
__________________
Sheltie is offline  
Old 08-20-2004, 07:02 PM   #41
The Fly
 
Lilac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 231
Local Time: 11:44 PM

and yet more links mentioning the reality of pets being stolen or taken under false pretenses for sale to research laboratories!

http://www.animalconcerns.org/resour...172356&catid=3

http://www.lcanimal.org/cmpgn/cmpgn_014.htm

http://tafkac.org/animals/stolen.pet...good_home.html

http://www.mdn.org/2000/STORIES/PET.HTM

http://www.theanimalrescue.com/halloween_warning.htm

http://www.ticked.com/errtravel/1999/errdogs.htm

http://www.petrescue.com/library/free-pet.htm
__________________
Lilac is offline  
Old 08-20-2004, 07:05 PM   #42
Refugee
 
ThatGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Vertigo
Posts: 1,277
Local Time: 12:44 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Sheltie


That animals are not stolen from families and placed in research labs and that they do not suffer horrible abuse by researchers. Also, that research is only used for testing medicine.
I didn't say that I didn't believe that it had never happened. I just don't think that it's that widespread. I also did not say that animals weren't harmed by researchers. I have no doubt that some of the testing being performed on animals is terrible, and I am troubled by it. However I know that we are all leading better, healthier lives due to animal research. We have a very wide assortment of vaccines/medicines that would not have been possible without animal testing. I believe that it's an unfortunate, but necessary, evil.

And next time I ask you to point out where I made unfounded claims it would be helpful if you found some that I actually said.

Quote:
I would also like to know why you seem to think we are better than animals. Is this because we can talk and they can't. Do you believe that because of this they deserve to suffer? You also stated we are at the top of the food chain. Excuse me, but I think a tiger and bear could kill and eat me before I could kill and eat him or her. So you may need to rethink that issue.
If tigers and bears were at the top of the foodchain they'd be living in my house and arguing about "human testing." A spider bite can kill me, but it doesn't put a spider above humans on the food chain. Humanity's ability to create tools has resulted in its ability to (wrongly) obliterate entire tiger and bear habitats. It's not some egotistical belief that causes me to think that people are "better" than animals. It's no different than a bear being "better" than a trout, or the lioness being "better" than a zebra. And like those animals, I have the "right" to eat animals that I'm "better" than.

And please don't create this straw man in my place of someone who thinks animals "deserve to suffer." My point is, if we create a new medicine that can cure a terrible disease, do you want it tested out on people, or animals? ANIMAL TESTING IS TERRIBLE! But would you rather test on people?
__________________
ThatGuy is offline  
Old 08-20-2004, 07:10 PM   #43
The Fly
 
Lilac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 231
Local Time: 11:44 PM
and here is a story that actually admits it happens but denies we need laws to stop it!

http://www.the-aps.org/pa/action/news/petsafety.htm
__________________
Lilac is offline  
Old 08-20-2004, 07:11 PM   #44
Refugee
 
ThatGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Vertigo
Posts: 1,277
Local Time: 12:44 PM


Is this a reason to end animal testing, or a reason to change the way in whcih they receive their specimens?
__________________
ThatGuy is offline  
Old 08-20-2004, 07:20 PM   #45
The Fly
 
Lilac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 231
Local Time: 11:44 PM
As long as animal research is common and accepted this will continue to happen. Even the animals who were not stolen or were not pets still suffer. I will have to look again for links that prove that most research is not for life saving medicine but for some very frivilous and unnecessary reasons (like the squirrel poo) I am about searched out for now, I will try it later.

And yes I do agree with people who say that there has to be a better way than inflicting torture on animals.

It may not be long before the homeless and abandoned elderly are used too. In Scotland hundreds of years ago people were arreseted for digging up bodies from cemetaries for sale to the local medical school.
__________________

__________________
Lilac is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:44 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com