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Old 01-06-2007, 11:27 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by yolland

For all I know this is what made you think of it, but I wonder how much this kind of thing ties in with this thread over in LS.
will people every stop confining themselves/others in gender roles?
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Old 01-07-2007, 03:22 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonosSaint
On the whole, I don't like the which sex makes a better of anything debate because I think it misses the core issues, but I've certainly observed things that bewilder me.
I'd agree with that. But could you maybe expand a bit on what you think the psychological process behind this "dousing the lights" looks like and how it might tie in to voting behavior? I could offer some speculations based on my own workplace, but academia is a pretty atypical work environment in many ways and it sounds like you've got firsthand acquaintance with what you're talking about.

I doubt there's any one reason why the US is so far behind when it comes to women's representation in politics, but most of my own theories so far have had to do with notions concerning peculiarly American attitudes towards politicians, as in this brief exchange I had with Irvine several months back. Perhaps this is in some sense really just a variant on what you're saying (or vice versa), but I'd be interested in getting a clearer fix on how you see what you described tying in to politics specifically.
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Old 01-07-2007, 09:36 AM   #48
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I think that many American women (and men) are not comfortable with women in the top authority position, with the chief decision-making responsibilities. I do not know what the reasons are behind that--whether there is a belief that women are intellectually inferior (although intellectual brilliance isn't something we seem to prize in our leaders), or (too often cited) women are emotionally incondusive to a position where clarity of thought and cold decision might be necessary, or (and I suspect this might be closest to the truth) Men present an aura (even if illusory) of authority much easier than women do--or are perceived to present that aura.

I read the exchange between you and Irvine and found it interesting and relatively accurate. I think many Americans are comfortable putting women in lesser degrees of authorities (ie, carrying out the policies of the men above them) and can pride themselves by pointing out those numbers.

I've said before I've listened to a lot of talk radio in the past due to curiosity and I'm always amazed by the women who call in, castigating other women for the exact same qualities they orgasm over in men (not that I think a lot of those qualities are exemplary in either sex)

I suppose if you want to take "douse the lights" to a political spectrum (although it is harder to pinpoint in such a broad and therefore hard to watch arena than it is to watch the dynamics in the workplace where you can observe it closely), I would think that you will find it is difficult for women running for higher office to get funding for a campaign without the approval of the male politicians above them. In a recent local election, I listened to the radio campaign a woman running for a state position andinvariably the testimonials from other power figures in the ad came from men--as if she's OK, men approve of her. (The lesser the position, the less the need for male approval).

Interestingly enough, look at two of the women who are in influential positions (one high profile, the other only high profile for a short time), one inadvertently refers to the President as her "husband" and the other practically wrote effusive, almost mash notes to him. I'd be a little hard pressed to find men doing that. My guess is that with politics as in life as I've observed, women rarely get much support or notice unless they are willing to absolutely toe the mark to further the agenda of the male power broker above them and unfortunately adoring deference is part of that recipe. And somehow that is acceptable.
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Old 01-07-2007, 10:09 AM   #49
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It's obvious that a muslim wouldn't take any oath based on the Christian bible so it's obvious that he would use the Koran, so why the big surprise?

I'm sure that Jewish congressmen/women aren't sworn in using the new testament, why should Muslims be any different?
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Old 01-07-2007, 10:48 AM   #50
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What if you're an athiest, what do you swear on in this case?
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Old 01-07-2007, 11:13 AM   #51
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You don't have to swear on anything. In the case of senators and representatives, the formal swearing-in is a mass ceremony where no one puts their hand on anything, however, most of them also choose to have a subsequent individual swearing-in where a text of their choice may be used, more as a photo-op than anything else. Presidents aren't required to swear on anything either: Teddy Roosevelt and Franklin Pierce didn't swear on Bibles; Pierce used a law book, I'm not sure if Roosevelt used anything. Both the act of swearing on a Bible and the common inclusion of the phrase "so help me God" are products of tradition, not Constitutional requirements.

Article VI, Section 3 of the Constitution:
Quote:
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.
Article II, Section 1:
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Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:--"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."
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Old 01-07-2007, 02:37 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by AussieU2fanman
What if you're an athiest, what do you swear on in this case?
Thats not an issue because an atheist won't get elected.
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Old 01-07-2007, 10:52 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by AussieU2fanman
What if you're an athiest, what do you swear on in this case?
i think on a law book.
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Old 01-07-2007, 11:18 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonosSaint
I do not know what the reasons are behind that--whether there is a belief that women are intellectually inferior (although intellectual brilliance isn't something we seem to prize in our leaders), or (too often cited) women are emotionally incondusive to a position where clarity of thought and cold decision might be necessary, or (and I suspect this might be closest to the truth) Men present an aura (even if illusory) of authority much easier than women do--or are perceived to present that aura.
I can buy the aura angle, but I always question whether these so-called theories in other aspects bare any truth at all; such as the incondusiveness with lacking clarity of thought and cold decision making. Lets get back to reality for a moment. In business, most positions are product and/or service based. Jobs revolve around turnarounds, staff management, programme implementation, system restructuring, all this mind numbing very uncreative shit that most (who work in) simply dont even find a need to get personally enmeshed in or struggle with. They're jobs or careers which ask no emotional management as a prerequisite. There's a million job descriptions. How many do we actually reckon hinge on this much puffed up cutting edge 'sending troops into war' scenario that is the very basis for the claiming that women can't do this in the first place? Very few men have jobs like this. Very few jobs like this probably actually exist for anyone to fight over. If there's a concentration of men in, say, the 10 (plucking a number at random here) that do exist, then sure, lets get 5 women employed in the others. If it is for the vast countless millions of other positions, then I say we cut the bullshit and face the possibility that what some claim are holding women incapable is actually a non reality.
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Old 01-08-2007, 10:11 AM   #55
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Supposedly Harvard might be choosing a female President, I'll believe that when I see it

Uhoh, women are taking over everything-run for your lives guys!
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