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Old 06-30-2003, 07:13 PM   #16
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
80s, you seem to believe a person who has been critical of the Bush administration should automatically have their comments disregarded as they are "biased."
I never made such a claim at all. The ONLY reason I brought up Deep's lack of objectivity is because HE SAID IT FIRST ABOUT OUIZY AND MYSELF. Didn't anybody read his post before they read mine? What do I have to do - rent a billboard? Good grief, I think I just stepped into the Twilight Zone or something. This is friggin' ridiculous. I realize that it's more fun to jump down a vocal conservative's throat, but come on, how can you just totally ignore that I wasn't the one who started the "objectivity" business?
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Old 06-30-2003, 07:29 PM   #17
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Originally posted by sulawesigirl4

fact 2: regardless of one's views on the reasons for going to war, the above comments by servicepeople should disturb you.
I've already stated my thoughts on what the service people said, but I'll say it again:

This journalist has taken comments that were obviously about self-protection and survival and represented them as if they were hateful statements about killing everyone in sight. I find that appalling.
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Old 06-30-2003, 09:17 PM   #18
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
If you're going to say "lets' not throw barbs", quote the person who started the "barb throwing", not theperson who responded. And what's funny about that is that right after you tell me not to throw barbs, you throw one yourself.
Quite right! My apologies.

I'm not unbiased, but I do feel those comments are legitimate. They aren't trained to be policemen. And as I said, I can't imagine going from killing Iraqi's to protecting them.

I'm sure it's hard to turn-off the war mentality and I'm sure some soldiers do feel like killing everyone in sight after seeing their comrades hurt or killed. Soldiers psyching themselves up to hate the enemy as a people is well documented.
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Old 06-30-2003, 10:29 PM   #19
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Scarletwine,


"They aren't trained to be policemen. And as I said, I can't imagine going from killing Iraqi's to protecting them."

First the objective of the US military is to destroy the ability of the enemy to fight, not simply killing individual soldiers. The US military gave medical attention to thousands of Iraqi soldiers wounded in battle, saving an unknown number of Iraqi soldiers lives.

There has never been a military force in history more concerned with preventing the deaths of civilians than todays US military. There has also never been a military force more dedicated to ending major hostilities as soon as possible once they begin there by saving not only US military lives but also Iraqi civilian and Iraqi military lives. The Defeat of all major Iraqi Combat units in under 4 weeks is a perfect example of this.

Not all soldiers are trained to be Policemen in the pure sence, but this idea of them as blood thirsty robots is simply incorrect. They are professionals, and are well trained to handle any hostile situation they encounter. In addition for more extensive and investigative work that may be required, the Military's MP(Military Police branches) are the best in the world. Many of the police currently walking the streets of South Chicago or New York City are prior MPs from the US military.

"Soldiers psyching themselves up to hate the enemy as a people is well documented."

Thats utter rubish except for individuals who may independently engage in such a useless activity. From a military perspective, the opposite is usually true. Most soldiers in today's military learn and respect a potential military adversary. It is an important part of being able to defeat another military, understanding its strenths and weaknesses.
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Old 07-03-2003, 02:48 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest

This journalist has taken comments that were obviously about self-protection and survival and represented them as if they were hateful statements about killing everyone in sight.
Don't you find it more appalling that soldiers are conditioned to rationalise it? Wanting to shoot kids? Doesn't that alarm you at all? Whether they did it or not is not the point. Alot of the comments are very Vietnamesque in the whole 'the only solution is to kill em all' logic these soldiers are left with after being gutted of their sense of decency by military training and rationalisation.

Even as the war was in progress I remember reading one NCO say something to the effect that 'I really wish we didn't have the Geneva convention or any of that stuff, it would just make this alot easier.'

I understand that soldiers must be capable of pulling the trigger but that shouldn't mean they must repress their humanity.

Its a lengthy feature story, and over that length its impossible for a journalist not to shape it in some way. If I'm honest I'll say I think the writer overdid it, since no embellishment is necessary given the sort of quotes he got, I think they speak loudly enough as it is. Of course if you don't want to listen I can't make you...
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Old 07-03-2003, 03:38 PM   #21
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brettig,

"Don't you find it more appalling that soldiers are conditioned to rationalise it? Wanting to shoot kids? Doesn't that alarm you at all? Whether they did it or not is not the point. Alot of the comments are very Vietnamesque in the whole 'the only solution is to kill em all' logic these soldiers are left with after being gutted of their sense of decency by military training and rationalisation."

I'm sorry, but I don't think you understand military training. It does not gut you of your sense of decency, if any thing it improves and reinforces it. As far as the comments, did you ever wonder what it would be like if everyone was recorded during the most intense and difficult points of their life? I wonder what one might let slip out of their mouth if they had not slept for days, were hungery, suited up in 115 degree heat and constantly being shot at. Saying something at a particular point, especially perhaps being misquoted or having the quote being taken out of context, is not as nearly important as ones actions.
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Old 07-04-2003, 12:51 AM   #22
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mmm so they don't brutalise in boot camp anymore? Its also quite unreasonable to suggest that every time you hear something you don't like that the journalist has misquoted or taken something out of context. Journalists are constantly dealing with people who ARE facing the most stressful time in their lives. Court cases, crime, controversy. Just because this is war doesn't mean soldiers get a free pass to say (or do!) whatever they want. Just imagine if, I dunno, some judge was quoted as saying he felt like killing a defendant. Not good.
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Old 07-04-2003, 02:48 PM   #23
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well said brettig. its madness.
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Old 07-04-2003, 03:34 PM   #24
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brettig,

mmm so they don't brutalise in boot camp anymore? Nope, at least not under your definition. As far as the journalist taking things out of context, reporting one thing and not another, and mis-qouting things, it may not happen all the time, but it happens incredibly often. To often, journalist sound so uninformed and unintelligent when it comes to reporting about military issues and events. Not all journalist though.

"Just because this is war doesn't mean soldiers get a free pass to say (or do!) whatever they want."

Soldiers understand that they don't get a free pass to do anything they want in war. But were talking about "words" not "actions". They understand the value of "freedom of speach", their in part defending it with their lives, while the journalist profits from it.
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Old 07-04-2003, 04:15 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
brettig,



Soldiers understand that they don't get a free pass to do anything they want in war. But were talking about "words" not "actions". They understand the value of "freedom of speach", their in part defending it with their lives, while the journalist profits from it.
Most of the time the soldiers are telling, i can say anything without the permision of my officer,...

Soldiers and freedom of speach,...
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Old 07-04-2003, 04:28 PM   #26
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Rono,

"Most of the time the soldiers are telling, i can say anything without the permision of my officer,..."

"Soldiers and freedom of speach,..."

Thats for operational security reasons. But soldiers will often express how they feel and what they think to their officers given the proper speach, context, and forum. Communication between all ranks and branches on just about everything is key, to a well functioning military unit.
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Old 07-04-2003, 04:34 PM   #27
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Originally posted by STING2
Rono,

"Most of the time the soldiers are telling, i can say anything without the permision of my officer,..."

"Soldiers and freedom of speach,..."

Thats for operational security reasons. But soldiers will often express how they feel and what they think to their officers given the proper speach, context, and forum. Communication between all ranks and branches on just about everything is key, to a well functioning military unit.

I do not mean tactical information,....
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Old 07-04-2003, 05:48 PM   #28
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nice sig, rono. why not make the entire world red white and blue...it pretty much already is.
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Old 07-05-2003, 01:48 AM   #29
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nice sig, rono. why not make the entire world red white and blue...it pretty much already is.
I do not want to destroy the illusions of freedom that the rest of the world have.


Read you,....
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