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Old 09-16-2002, 03:10 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
Ms Heartland-
Thank you for your opinion
I promise you I wont go start any threads on why Im befuddled on how some presidents who I feel sucked duped the American people.
And Im not even a "neutral" college professor

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your more like gilligan
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Old 09-16-2002, 03:21 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
Ms Heartland-
Thank you for your opinion
I promise you I wont go start any threads on why Im befuddled on how some presidents who I feel sucked duped the American people.
And Im not even a "neutral" college professor

DB9
You're welcome!

All presidents dupe the American public on some level. I, for one, would rather be duped in regard to the president's sex life than be duped in regard to the selling of arms or how trickle down economics works (or doesn't work, as the case may be).

Peace to the diamond sexy one.
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Old 09-16-2002, 03:25 PM   #33
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Ahem Arun-

To arun-
Whatever you say "Mrs Howell"



Dave
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Old 09-16-2002, 03:31 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by HeartlandGirl


You're welcome!

All presidents dupe the American public on some level. I, for one, would rather be duped in regard to the president's sex life than be duped in regard to the selling of arms or how trickle down economics works (or doesn't work, as the case may be).

Peace to the diamond sexy one.
Yo
Peace
Sister.

Out
diamond
xxox
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Old 09-17-2002, 11:42 AM   #35
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If there are ANY doubts that reagan created saddam


read this article


http://www.msnbc.com/news/807688.asp#BODY



Also...for the sake of the education of all interferencers


There are no elected officials in pakistan it is a military dictatorship. Mushareff came to power as the result of a military coup within the last 5 years.

tyler...you are right on with yoru take on pakistan, The UN resolutions are clearly against them and they know that the US will side with india. It' unfortunate that The nixom administration set relations with india so far back that it took bill clinton to set it right again.
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Old 09-17-2002, 04:34 PM   #36
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Thanks for the link Arun!

I will be reading it tonight.


By the way has anyone claimed the title of "The Professor"?

Peace to all!
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Old 09-17-2002, 04:40 PM   #37
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Arun,

That article did not say "Reagan created Saddam". Its "how we helped create Saddam" supposedly. The article is full of what is more speculation rather than fact. Diplomatic meetings, allowing the sell of duel use technology, that was allowed for other countries as well back then, and unsubstantiated "economic aid" is not evidence that we "created" Saddam. Information on the supposed sell of US tanks to Egypt and then Egypts sell of the tanks to Iraq is simply false. I have the complete Iraqi military weapons tables listing all conventional military equipment that Iraq has as of June 1989. What should come as a surprise to most of you is the vast amount of Soviet Equipment(including key area's like tanks and fighter aircraft) that Iraq has, and the lack of almost any US equipment, aside from a few US weapon systems that were captured from Iran during the Iran/Iraq War. These weapon systems were sold to Iran when the Shah was still in power.

My information comes from the internationaly respected London based thing tank, IISS, The International Institute Of Strategic Studies. It is either terrible sloppy journalism by newsweek or the simple desire to sell more magazine's through controversy, based on little fact, and taken out of the context of where ALL and MOST of Iraq's military machine came from. I'll post what is known about Iraq's military machine before the start of the Gulf War, which will include the list of all major conventional weapons systems and where they came from. While WMD weapons are threatening as terror weapons against civilians and unprotected military, they are not the weapons that helped Iraq defeat Iran, nor are they the main weapons in surpressing Kurds or Shia's or other opposition in Iraq. Nor are they the weapons that he used to attack Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and Israel with. I'll post the information on Iraq's military and where the weapons came from, when I get the chance.
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Old 09-17-2002, 08:50 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
Arun,

That article did not say "Reagan created Saddam". Its "how we helped create Saddam" supposedly. The article is full of what is more speculation rather than fact. Diplomatic meetings, allowing the sell of duel use technology, that was allowed for other countries as well back then, and unsubstantiated "economic aid" is not evidence that we "created" Saddam. Information on the supposed sell of US tanks to Egypt and then Egypts sell of the tanks to Iraq is simply false. I have the complete Iraqi military weapons tables listing all conventional military equipment that Iraq has as of June 1989. What should come as a surprise to most of you is the vast amount of Soviet Equipment(including key area's like tanks and fighter aircraft) that Iraq has, and the lack of almost any US equipment, aside from a few US weapon systems that were captured from Iran during the Iran/Iraq War. These weapon systems were sold to Iran when the Shah was still in power.

My information comes from the internationaly respected London based thing tank, IISS, The International Institute Of Strategic Studies. It is either terrible sloppy journalism by newsweek or the simple desire to sell more magazine's through controversy, based on little fact, and taken out of the context of where ALL and MOST of Iraq's military machine came from. I'll post what is known about Iraq's military machine before the start of the Gulf War, which will include the list of all major conventional weapons systems and where they came from. While WMD weapons are threatening as terror weapons against civilians and unprotected military, they are not the weapons that helped Iraq defeat Iran, nor are they the main weapons in surpressing Kurds or Shia's or other opposition in Iraq. Nor are they the weapons that he used to attack Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and Israel with. I'll post the information on Iraq's military and where the weapons came from, when I get the chance.
I'd like to see that...I think you should email this to newsweek..if what your saying is in fact true...this article is highly misleading
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Old 09-17-2002, 09:22 PM   #39
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Saddam's parents created Saddam.

Al gore created the internet.

Ronald Reagan created a monkey by the name of "Bonzo."

God created everything else.

There is nothing further to debate.
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Old 09-18-2002, 02:34 PM   #40
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Don't even get me started on Bonzo the chimp!
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Old 09-18-2002, 04:57 PM   #41
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upon doing some fact checking


I've found this article to be more true than people in this thread were leading me to believe.

The US has shipped arms to iraq.


You know what's funny??


I have no problem criticizing Democratic administartions for stupid things...for instance Clinton and the sale of military tech to the to the chinese


however...the same people that accuse me of being too partisan will even (try to) justify allying ourselves with known terrorists, in order to keep the integrity of a republican president.
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Old 09-18-2002, 05:12 PM   #42
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Really? What I have to post is rather lengthy and I have not had time yet to do it. If you have info on US arms shipment to Iraq, please name the weapon system and quantity shipped! Anything short of that is not evidence.
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Old 09-18-2002, 07:58 PM   #43
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I hope this won't take me to long, but here is the military organisation and equipment holdings for Iraq as of June 1, 1989. This information comes from The Military Balance 1989-1990 published by Brassey's for THE INTERNATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR STRATEGIC STUDIES. The IISS is an independent, internationally staffed centre for research, information and debate on the problems of security, conflict and conflict control, arms and arms control in the modern world.

The equipment tables list all weapon systems and usually list type or name. It does not actually list country of origion, but from my own knowledge backed up by other sources on military weapons, I am able to list if the weapon system is Soviet, Chinese, French, German, USA, etc. for most of the weapons in the equipment table that have a type listed but not all. Weapon systems that are not known are from countries other than the Soviet Union, China, or the USA. The combat weapon systems that are listed as USA are captured weapons systems from Iran and are listed as inoperable. The same applies for British weapon systems found in the table. Iraq only has small numbers of both.

TOTAL ARMED FORCES:
ACTIVE: 1,000,000
RESERVES: 850,000

ARMY: 955,000
7 corps HQ.
7 armd/mech divisions.
42 inf divisions
6 Presidential Guard Force Divisions(3 armored, 1 infrantry, 1 cdo brigade)
20+ SF Brigades
2 SSM Brigades

EQUIPMENT:
MAIN BATTLE TANKS: 5,500: 2,500 T-54/-55(SOVIET) M-77(ROMANIAN), 1,000 T-59/-69(CHINESE), 1,000 T-62(SOVIET), 1,000 T-72(SOVIET), 30: Chieftain(United Kingdom), M-60(USA), M-47(USA).
LIGHT TANKS: 100 PT-76(SOVIET)

RECONNAISSANCE: BRDM-2(SOVIET), 300 AML-60/-90(?), FUG-70(?), ERC-90(FRENCH), Mowag Roland(GERMAN), EE-9 Cascavel(?), 300 EE-3 Jararaca(?)

ARMORED INFANTRY FIGHTING VEHICLES: 1,000 BMP(SOVIET)

ARMORED PERSONAL CARRIERS: 7,100: BTR-50/-60/-152(SOVIET), OT-62/-64(CZECH), M-113A1(USA), Panhard M-3(?), EE-11 Urutu(?)
TOWED ARTILLERY: 3,000: 105mm: M-56 pack(?); 122mm: D-74(SOVIET), D-30(SOVIET), M-1938(SOVIET); 130mm: M-46(SOVIET), Type 59-1(CHINESE); 152mm: M-1937(SOVIET), M-1943(SOVIET); 155mm: 100 G-5(SOUTH AFRICA), 200 GHN-45(?), M-114(?)

SELF-PROPELLED ARTILLERY: 500: 122mm: 2S1(SOVIET); 152mm: 2S3(SOVIET); 155mm: M-109(USA); 85 AUF-1 (GCT)(?)

MULTIPLE ROCKET LAUNCHERS: 200: 122mm: BM-21(SOVIET); 127mm: 60 astros II(IRAQ); 128mm: Ababil(IRAQ); 132mm: BM-13/-16(SOVIET); 180mm: astros SS-40(IRAQ); 300mm: astros SS-60(IRAQ)

MORTARS: 81mm; 120mm; 160mm.(type's not given)

SURFACE TO SURFACE MISSILE(launchers): 30 FROG-7(SOVIET); Sijil(IRAQ); 36 Scud B(SOVIET); Abbas(IRAQ); Husayn(IRAQ).

ANTI-TANK GUIDED WEAPONS: AT-3 Sagger(SOVIET), AT-4 Spigot(SOVIET), SS-11(FRENCH), Milan(GERMAN), HOT(FRENCH).

RECOILLESS LAUNCHER(S): 73mm: SPG-9(SOVIET); 82mm: B-10(SOVIET); 107mm(type not listed)

ANTI-TANK GUNS: 85mm(type not listed); 100mm towed(SOVIET); 105mm: 100 JPz(GERMAN), SK-105 SP(?)

HELICOPTERS: some 160 armed helicopters.
ATTACK: 40 Mi-24 with AT-2 swatter(SOVIET), 20 SA-342(FRENCH); 13 SA-321(FRENCH), some 30 SA-316B(FRENCH), 56 Bo-105(GERMAN)
TRANSPORT: heavy: 15 Mi-6(SOVIET); medium: 100 Mi8/-17(SOVIET), 6 AS-61(?), 10 SA-330(FRENCH), 20 Mi-4(SOVIET), lt: 3 A-109(?), 5 AB-212(?), 40 Bell 214 ST(USA) Hughes 300C/500D/530F (30/30/26)(USA), 30 SA-342(FRENCH)

AIR-DEFENSE GUNS: 4,000: 23mm: ZSU-23-4 SP(SOVIET); 37mm: M-1939(SOVIET); 57mm: ZSU-57-2 SP(SOVIET); 85mm(no type listed); 100mm(no type listed); 130mm(no type listed).

SURFACE TO AIR MISSILE'S: 120 SA-2(SOVIET), 150 SA-3(SOVIET), SA-6(SOVIET), SA-7(SOVIET), SA-9(SOVIET), SA-13(SOVIET), SA-14(SOVIET), 60 Roland(GERMAN).


NAVY: 5,000

FRIGATES: 5:
4 Hittin (lt Lupo) with 1AB-212 hel(asw)(?) 2 x 3 ASTT(?); plus 8 x Otomat SSM, 1 x 127mm gun(?). 1 Khaldoum (training) with 2 x ASTT(?).
MISSILE CRAFT: 8 Nisan 7 (Sov Osa) with 4 x SS-N-2 Styx SSM(SOVIET)
TORPEDO CRAFT: 6 Sov P-6 with 2 x 533mm TT(SOVIET)
PATROL INSHORE: 20: 3 SO-1, 4 Nyryat II, 13(?)
MINE WARFARE: 8:
MCM: 2 Sov T-43 MSC, 6 MSI(SOVIET)
AMPHIBIOUS: 6
3 Al Zahraa LST(?), capacity 250tps, 20 tk, 1 hel.
3 Sov Polnocny LSM(SOVIET), capacity 180 tps, 6 tk.
SUPPORT AND MISCELLANEOUS: 3: 1 Agnadeen(lt Stromboli)(?) AOR, 2 Presidential yachts.


AIR FORCE: 40,000 incl 10,000 Air Defense personnel; 513 combat aircraft.
BOMBERS: 2 sqn:
1 with 8 Tu-22(SOVIET); 1 with 8 Tu-16(SOVIET), 4 H-6D(CHINESE)

FIGHTER'S, GROUND ATTACK: 17 sqn:
4 with 70 Mig-23BN(SOVIET)
4 with 64 Mirage F-1EQ5/EQ5-200(FRENCH)
2 with 30 Su-7(SOVIET)
2 with 50 Su-20(SOVIET)
2 with 30 Su-25(SOVIET)
2 with 40 J-6(CHINESE)

FIGHTER: 16 sqn with 25 Mig-25(SOVIET), 80 J-7(CHINESE), 70 Mig-21(SOVIET), 30 Mirage F-1EQ(FRENCH), 18 Mig-29(SOVIET)

RECON: 1 sqn of 8 Mig-25(SOVIET)

TRANSPORT: 2sqn 10 An-2(?); 6 An-12(?); 6 An-24(?); 2 An-26(?), 19 Il-76(?), 19Il-14(?)

AIR TO AIR MISSILE'S: R-530(?), R-550(?) Majic, AA-2/-6/-7/-8(?)
AIR TO SURFACE MISSILE'S: AS-30 Laser(?), Armat, Exocet AM-39, C-601, AS-4, AS-5.


As one can see from the list, the Soviet Union was the chief supplier of weapons to Iraq followed distantly by China and France with others making smaller contributions. The small number of USA combat equipment listed in the totals was captured from Iran during the Iran/Iraq war. There are transport helicopters(non-combat) that were supplied to Iraq. If anyone created the Iraqi war machine it should be clear from this that its MOSCOW. The Soviets kept a force of 2,000 troops and advisors in Iraq through the Iran/Iraq war and up to a couple of months before the USA invasion of Iraq in 1991. Not only did the Soviets supply most of Iraq's weapons, but they also trained their pilots tankers and other troops in Soviet Military, tactics, doctrine, and theory's!
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Old 09-18-2002, 09:10 PM   #44
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1.) giving somebody funds to buy arms is just as good as giving it to them yourself
2.) I don't believe I saw the missile targetting systems on your list. (I'm not saying they are US I'm curious where tehy came from)


3.) also the chemical and biological capabilities have been linked to the US.
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Old 09-18-2002, 10:11 PM   #45
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I will conced, in hindsight, that the U.S. does not always pick the classiest of friends in the international community. I do believe that it was reasonable to assume that a secularist regime in Iraq was favorable to the Ayatollah Khomeini's Islamic Revolution theocracy in Iran. THOSE people were bastards! What happened to all of the Persian Jews who lived in Iran up until the overthrow of the Shah? Why did they start executing homosexuals and apostates?

I stand by my belief that Saddam's parents created him.

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