I have just lost a ton of respect for Rush....

[chain]

Yellokite,

As far as this comment "Have you ever noticed how all newspaper composite pictures of wanted criminals resemble Jesse Jackson?" is concerned. It is racist simply because it assumes that all wanted criminals look like Jesse Jackson,i.e. black. And it assumes that all black people look similar to each other - being interchangable as criminals on a wanted poster sharing nothing more than a skin color.

You stated this very succinctly. It is so obvious to me. I thought if anyone evaluated it, they would arrive at your conclusion. That is the only way it sounds to me.

"Have you ever noticed how all newspaper composite pictures of wanted criminals resemble Jesse Jackson?"

ALL pictures of CRIMINALS resemble JESSE JACKSON

Jesse Jackson (Black) All criminals (black)

Or maybe Rush meant Rev. Jesse Jackson (religious) all criminals (religious) therefore, all religious are criminal?

I think Rush was going for the first premise.

That someone denies this, is astounding to me. Perhaps they really don't see it. In this forum some people have a hard time changing their opinion. That is why I suggested presenting this premise to a few people for a reaction. I do this myself when I find myself in a minority opinion. I don't always change my mind, but it is the best tool I have to hear a different perspective, without the bias of defending an opinion already presented.

I don't believe you said America was responsible for 9/11. I believe you stated what pretty much occurred. Those events may have contributed to totally unacceptable actions.


Thank you for a thoughtful and serious contribution to this thread.

Chain.


80s,

By your postings you seem to be a devout, religious person. I respect your walk in your beliefs. If you don't understand how the remark is offensive, take my suggestion and present it to 5 or 6 random people. If the thought of repeating it, makes you uncomfortable maybe you understand more than you think.

Sincerely,

chain


[This message has been edited by chain (edited 03-25-2002).]

[This message has been edited by chain (edited 03-25-2002).]

 

[YellowKite]

I feel that I am about to go down in flames - that being said -

In my logic class at university my prof used Rush as an example of someone who sounds like he is using reasoning but in fact none of his agruments made logistical sense.

A logical argument would flow:
If A then B
If B then C
Therefore A=C

Rush's mapped out:
If A then B
If C then D
Therefore A=D - which is flawed.

Granted these are selected arguments we used, but employing the idea of random statistical data it appears to be a valid sampling. Also because we were all charged with bringing arguments to the table, no one person was sifting through the samples looking for good examples to make the point.

In any event the nature of journalism today grants that nearly all these talking heads use this type of flawed logic and therefore Americans deserve to be swayed by it. If you can't think for yourself, then you run the risk of having flawed thinking done on your behalf.

As far as this comment "Have you ever noticed how all newspaper composite pictures of wanted criminals resemble Jesse Jackson?" is concerned. It is racist simply because it assumes that all wanted criminals look like Jesse Jackson,i.e. black. And it assumes that all black people look similar to each other - being interchangable as criminals on a wanted poster sharing nothing more than a skin color.

And finally - Michael Moore isn't a complete idiot. He makes the same use of the system as Rush and both men seem to be making a fair to middling living doing so. That would take some intellect. I like to use him as my balance against Rush - my truth lays somewhere in the middle.

Finally - I hold that Americans (and I speak of government and policies) have to shoulder their portion of the blame for the events that led up to 9/11.

We used Afgan against the Soviets to our own end and walked away. Granted we can not be responsbile for the bolstering of every country and every nation that is faltering. However, their country was faltering partly because we used them as a weapon. We let them sacrifice their soldiers (by definition usually the young and strong - those assests a country depends on for a future) on the altar of capitalism and democracy. By god in return they should have recieved at least some aid.

We charged in like white knights on the behalf of Kuwait, when we waited years to help out in Somolia. In theory both countries were under humantarian threats - but only one had massive oil interests to protect. Americans are self serving. Humans are self serving. I am self serving. I use oil. I complain when it costs more. At the same time I am grateful that I live here and no where else.

Americans are loved for the very reasons we are despised. We are gluttonous, selfish, proud and loud. The advantages of being our friend means we are generous, jovial and loyal. The disadvantages of being our enemy is that we are equally vengeful, vicious
and cruel. We can hold a grudge. We can also forgive.

Since humanity is basically self serving, then a byproduct is that we are also jealous when others have what we want. Into a mix of jealous and spite lays the root of conflict, i.e. terrorism and war.

Our hands are not clean and our motives not pure, but all in all we are a generally good nation and our goodness lies in what I have just made a example of - Freedom.

Have a nice day.
Mone

 

[YellowKite]

80s:
However, I wonder where you got your info that our support of Afghanistan was under the table? I for one knew that we were the power behind driving the Soviets out, and if I, just a child at the time, knew that, it wasn't very hidden. It was all over the news. My entire point, in fact, wasn't whether we actually had soldiers or not. It was that we entered the war in some capacity after it had started, so how could we have been "using" Afghanistan?

Did you really know then? I believe that much of the knowledge we have now is a result of Iran Contra - etc. More commonly now known as the secret wars of the CIA. Ironically former Pres. Bush having been the director of the CIA and neck deep in that time when these policies were implemented. Ironic because his son is now having to deal with the fallout.

I still believe that our 'use' of the Afghans was stepping into the middle of [you are right] an existing conflict for our own motives. Valid reasons notwithstanding, they scratched our backs - we owed them the courtesy of more than walking away.

Chain:
I don't believe you said America was responsible for 9/11. I believe you stated what pretty much occurred. Those events may have contributed to totally unacceptable actions.

Thank you. Mostly what I wanted to say was that when Americans wail at this atrocity ? and it is an atrocity - then (at least as far as I am concerned) it sometimes helps to understand the motive behind the act. IN NO WAY DO I SAY THAT UNDERSTANDING THE HISTORY OF EVENTS DO WE CONDONE THEM.

WHY? is the first question we ask, even as small children, and sometimes WHY doesn?t have a comfortable answer.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by YellowKite:
80s:
Did you really know then? I believe that much of the knowledge we have now is a result of Iran Contra - etc. More commonly now known as the secret wars of the CIA. Ironically former Pres. Bush having been the director of the CIA and neck deep in that time when these policies were implemented. Ironic because his son is now having to deal with the fallout.

Oh yes, I really knew at the time...I remember seeing it on the news all the time. I remember rejoicing when the Soviets were driven back.
I don't understand the Iran-Contra link. That was a totaly different thing altogether.

 

[YellowKite]

Oh yes, I really knew at the time...I remember seeing it on the news all the time. I remember rejoicing when the Soviets were driven back.
I don't understand the Iran-Contra link. That was a totaly different thing altogether.

I understand the news of the Soviets being driven back being well known - but our involvement was what emerged later. As far as the Iran-Contra - I just meant that as an example of these types of secret wars conducted by our government.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by YellowKite:
.
I understand the news of the Soviets being driven back being well known - but our involvement was what emerged later.

I'm saying specifiucally that I knew at that time that America was involved. I understand these days that I didn't know back then - that our main presence was the CIA training them, but back then I did indeed know we were involved. I don't think that was kept a secret.

 

[YellowKite]

I'm saying specifiucally that I knew at that time that America was involved. I understand these days that I didn't know back then - that our main presence was the CIA training them, but back then I did indeed know we were involved. I don't think that was kept a secret.

You were/are a very well informed person. I think it was news to many people only later as to the extent of our involvement. I know it was for me.



[This message has been edited by YellowKite (edited 03-26-2002).]

 

[STING2]

Yellowkite,
The war was very much in the news at the time as was are support for the rebels. Jimmy Carter decided to boycott the the 1980 summer Olympics because of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.
During the early years of the war, my father an army officer worked at the Pentagon and I remember discussing events in Afghanistan with him as well as are support for the rebels fighting the Soviets.

 

[YellowKite]

Originally posted by STING2:
The war was very much in the news at the time as was are support for the rebels. Jimmy Carter decided to boycott the the 1980 summer Olympics because of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.
During the early years of the war, my father an army officer worked at the Pentagon and I remember discussing events in Afghanistan with him as well as are support for the rebels fighting the Soviets.

I also recall the war being on the news. I don't doubt that Americans 'supported' the rebels against the Soviets. The discussion was about our government's clandestine collusion with the rebels, and the extent of it, emerging only later.

 

[STING2]

Well thats my whole point, aid to the rebels was not secret. It was widely known when missles such as the Stinger started to be supplied to the rebels. What is less widely known is that 2/3s of all aid came from Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.