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Old 03-20-2002, 02:33 AM   #76
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If there is nothing else, I'm done with this discussion.
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Old 03-20-2002, 03:04 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally posted by joyfulgirl:
Would it? You don't even know me. I doubt my personal experience would carry a great deal of credence with you when your opinion is already written in stone. But for what it's worth, no, he said nothing racist in my presence. He was just arrogant and full of himself. I disliked his personality intensely.

Bubba, I can't talk to you. I do not find your observations "astute." You have a need to be right. I don't. I find you to be a bully and I will not debate with a bully. I disagree with 80s 99% of the time, but at least he is a nice person. I don't think you are.

[This message has been edited by joyfulgirl (edited 03-19-2002).]
Personality aside, I believe the fact that you personally never heard Rush utter a single slur speaks volumes - as does the afore-mentioned fact that his call screener, one of his substitutes, and the man who performed his wedding ceremony happen to be black.

An arrogant (I'd say confident) personality does not make one a racist. You can dislike that person all you want, but to call him a racist on so little evidence is not called-for.

And I personally don't care what you think of me (nor do I honestly think you don't care about being right). If you don't find my arguments valid, accurate, or germaine, please explain HOW.

All I demand is what I myself bring to these discussions: arguments based in a great deal of evidence and logic.
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Old 03-20-2002, 03:44 AM   #78
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Joyfulgirl,

You are a voice of reason.


“I'd definitely like to see you list any racist remarks he has made.”


So you post a said requested list, and three angry white males get hopping mad.

"Have you ever noticed how all newspaper composite pictures of wanted criminals resemble Jesse Jackson?"
How exactly is this racist?
Anyone?


That says it all!

Anyone who would ask this question just does not get it, probably never will.


I now light a candle against the darkness.

Chain

“Tell the truth and people will not like you, tell the truth when they know you are right and they will hate you”
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Old 03-20-2002, 03:47 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
Personality aside, I believe the fact that you personally never heard Rush utter a single slur speaks volumes - as does the afore-mentioned fact that his call screener, one of his substitutes, and the man who performed his wedding ceremony happen to be black.

An arrogant (I'd say confident) personality does not make one a racist. You can dislike that person all you want, but to call him a racist on so little evidence is not called-for.

And I personally don't care what you think of me (nor do I honestly think you don't care about being right). If you don't find my arguments valid, accurate, or germaine, please explain HOW.

All I demand is what I myself bring to these discussions: arguments based in a great deal of evidence and logic.

Bubba, I did not say Rush is racist based on my personal experience with him, which was, granted, limited but enough to know that not only do I disagree with his politics, I dislike his personality.

There have been many politicians and other public figures I have met through my work who were very pleasant to deal with, even though I disagreed with their politics. Dan Quayle is one example. Extremely nice person to deal with in a professional context. But I am not here to name drop, merely to point out that I am not committed to a particular opinion of anyone on a personal level just because I agree or disagree with their politics.

I said I was offended by Rush's tendency to make racial comments and I base that on several things I have read, the above article being one of them. To me, the article is credible. To you, it is not. There are many such articles, and if I didn't have a job I could find them all, quote them to you, and then you would have the same response, that they are taken out of context by "liberals" or that you still don't understand why they are racist.

For the record, I did not personally hear the context of these comments. But it was a big news story at the time and much-discussed. If there was some big point he was making, or a lesson I should know about, to put those comments in a non-racist context, I am happy to hear about it. If referencing articles written by journalists makes my argument null and void because I didn't hear it myself directly, then so be it. I don't care. I really don't, although we all base opinions everyday on things we read in the media--right or wrong--because few of us are in a position to have direct personal experience with every public figure and to be in every situation we read about. If a whole bunch of people heard Rush say those things and I didn't, and some of them wrote articles about it, I tend to believe they aren't lying though I am certainly willing to concede that they may have taken the comments out of context or didn't "get" his point.

In any case, I cannot spend all day researching to prove my point. Maybe I am wrong. Maybe this article is wrong. It's really okay with me since my self-esteem is not defined by how often I am right or wrong in online forum debates, and if being wrong builds a little humility, then I welcome it. But I do not care enough about this particular argument to invest anymore energy into it because it is futile with you. If you had responded with, 'Hmm, that's an interesting article--but I question the source and I also wonder if perhaps those comments were taken out of context--did you happen to hear the context yourself?" I might be willing to continue. But until you learn how not to attack like the insecure schoolyard bully, you are off my radar.


[This message has been edited by joyfulgirl (edited 03-19-2002).]
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Old 03-20-2002, 12:32 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
When I'm wrong about facts or what someone else said, I admit it.

When I clearly go too far in my use of figurative language or harsh language, I apologize.

When someone else makes a good point (regardless of whether I disagree), I point that out, too.
ah yes, I've seen you post this before

Quote:
BUT what exactly do you want from me? Do you want me to say, "Great argument" when it's clearly not the case? To act like I'm less certain about my beliefs than I really am?
your beliefs?
I have no problems with your beliefs
my problem is that you when someone has a different OPINION (thought I'd use caps for once) then yours, you won't even accept it as an opinion

example:
I can't say I feel the article posted by Joyfulgirl shows that Rush Limbaugh is a racist

by no way does this mean that I feel the article is nothing more than vendictive slander
even though 'racist' is a pretty well defined term it is very well possible that some people will interpret the points mentioned in the article as evidence of racism and others don't

this has nothing to do with beliefs
it has nothing to do with facts
it has to do with different interpretations

and to say my interpretation is more right then anyone else's seems weird to me

Quote:
I'm what you call an OBJECTIVIST. I believe there's a definite right and a definite wrong, that some positions are merely emotional, illogical, or based on things I do not hold dear.
mmm, that could also be the definition of opininated if you ask me

Quote:
I think that, first of all, you wouldn't expect anyone else to forsake their own deeply held beliefs for the sake of playing nice.
like I pointed out before I indeed would never want you to not stand up for your beliefs
I don't feel beliefs have that much to do with most of the arguments in here though

Quote:
If there is nothing else, I'm done with this discussion.
thank you for pointing that out
I feel so much better now

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Old 03-20-2002, 11:57 PM   #81
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Bubba, would you provide us with three links to posts here on Interference where you acknowledge that you were wrong in a substantive way on any issue? Note my use of "substantive." An acknowledgement from you that you got an insignificant statistic wrong but that it doesn't speak to your larger point doesn't count.

Thanks,
MAP
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Old 03-21-2002, 01:19 AM   #82
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can't believe all the typing involved over one of the most meaningless, boring, blowhards in the universe. Could this epitomy of the word narcissist actually mean that much to anyone? Doubt it.
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Old 03-21-2002, 02:34 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally posted by Matthew_Page2000:
Bubba, would you provide us with three links to posts here on Interference where you acknowledge that you were wrong in a substantive way on any issue? Note my use of "substantive." An acknowledgement from you that you got an insignificant statistic wrong but that it doesn't speak to your larger point doesn't count.

Thanks,
MAP
I do not wish to continue this discussion, but neither do I have any desire to give the false impression - through my silence - that I'm somehow caught without words.

To answer your request, no, I won't provide any such links.

Why? Because they do not exist. In terms of the most substantive issues, I have not found myself on the wrong side of any issue in this forum. I have not encountered an argument pursuasive enough to convince me to reverse my views.

I will not post any links where I admit I'm substantively wrong because those links can't be found - and I can trace that directly to the fact that I believe I'm generally right.

I know many people believe that it's "weird" to actually think an opinion is either right or wrong, that there is no real truth, and that only interpretations exist.

I'm simply not one of those people.

I don't believe my opinions are right because they're MINE; I believe they're right becuase they are based on facts and logic, and because they hold up to careful scrutiny.

So, I don't believe I've ever been seriously incorrect in this forum.

I must ask, what does that prove?

(I know the response: that I'm arrogant, a "bully" and a "bulldozer".)

But seriously, HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE ADMITTED THAT THEY ARE WRONG?

Not very many, I can tell you that for damn certain.

As far as I can tell, there are essentially two groups here:

1. The objectivists who believe that truth does exist: in most cases, they think they're right and the other guy's wrong.

2. The so-called subjectivists who clam to believe that truth doesn't actually exist: they think nobody's right and nobody's wrong, and (I suppose) we should all go skipp merrily through the woods singing songs about trees and rainbows.

(Though, I suspect if subjectivists HONESTLY believed that truth doesn't exist, they wouldn't even try to offer any evidence to support their opinions and pursuade others to see thing their way.)

The fact remains: NEITHER GROUP OFTEN ADMITS THEY'RE WRONG.

Now, if you're done, I'm outta here.
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Old 03-21-2002, 09:53 AM   #84
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Good job Achtung Bubba,
I'm glad you came back for one more post, to set the record straight. You have been unfairly lambasted by a couple of people who ought to be ashamed of the way they've carried on. But you're right, it seems in this world that if you stand by your convictions, you're a "bully" and "arrogant"...oh, let me rephrase that; if you stand by your CONSERVATIVE convictions, you're labeled a "bully" and "arrogant".
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Old 03-21-2002, 02:32 PM   #85
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Im with you Bubba.

Db9

ps-
you made me giggle about the subjective crowd 'skipping thru the woods'..
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Old 03-21-2002, 04:21 PM   #86
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Bubba,

A little help my friend.

Here IS how it is done.

I would like to pay you a sincere complement. A while back in a different thread concerning the confederate flag, you stated that if it offended minorities you thought it should not be displayed.
Most of my friends who reside quite a bit south of the Mason Dixon line give weak arguments about Southern pride, culture, etc. I expected something similar from you, ****(I WAS WRONG) and was pleasantly surprised.
Your postings reveal you to be a huge Rush fan, I was once, *****(I WAS WRONG) I now hear what many others hear, (Joyful, etc)

Re: "Have you ever noticed how all newspaper composite pictures of wanted criminals resemble Jesse Jackson?"

Here is a thought, go up to 5 or 6 random people (not your like minded peers, include some people of color) and ask them to respond to this remark.

If you are not comfortable repeating it, then print it out on paper and present it that way.

Let’s call it a home study assignment for a, sociology? or media? class.


It is painless and liberating.

Let me help you get started,

When the issue doesn't much matter, I respect different opinions. (were you wrong here?)
When I'm wrong about facts or what someone else said, I admit it. (maybe here?)
When I clearly go too far in my use of figurative language or harsh language, I apologize. (not wrong, you have)
When someone else makes a good point (regardless of whether I disagree), I point that out, too. (?)

Through my college studies I read Ayn Rand, The Fountainhead, and most of Atlas Shrugged.
Objectivism, is a neat, clean philosophy. It works perfectly in theory. But, as I explain to my students, it goes wanting in real world applications.


Regards,

Chain
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Old 03-21-2002, 05:18 PM   #87
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LOL...these threads are all the same, regardless of who debates in it. Hence why I consciously stopped arguing in it. Good day...

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time
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Old 03-21-2002, 07:18 PM   #88
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Originally posted by melon:
LOL...these threads are all the same, regardless of who debates in it. Hence why I consciously stopped arguing in it. Good day...

Melon

I find it funny.. 'LOL', that you make a point of coming into this thread and pointing out to all of us that 'Woo Hoo', You didn't post in here.. Hahaha.. That's very amusing Melon, feeling a little left out?...

L.Unplugged
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Old 03-21-2002, 11:58 PM   #89
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Chain,

Again, I have no desire to continue this discussion - as I have already said twice. Fact of the matter is, I'm soon taking a vacation from the forum to focus on work and other websites.

I would like to have ended these discussions on a civil note, but I believe I will make an exception for you.

Chain, what the fuck do you think you are doing?

Quote:
Originally posted by chain:
It is painless and liberating.

Let me help you get started,

When the issue doesn't much matter, I respect different opinions. (were you wrong here?)
When I'm wrong about facts or what someone else said, I admit it. (maybe here?)
When I clearly go too far in my use of figurative language or harsh language, I apologize. (not wrong, you have)
When someone else makes a good point (regardless of whether I disagree), I point that out, too. (?)

Through my college studies I read Ayn Rand, The Fountainhead, and most of Atlas Shrugged.
Objectivism, is a neat, clean philosophy. It works perfectly in theory. But, as I explain to my students, it goes wanting in real world applications.
You know what else is liberating? Being completely honest: to be honest, you are an asshole.

You suggest that I'm wrong (i.e., lying) about the fact that I *do* in fact respect other opinions in matters of lesser importance, that I do apologize when I get facts wrong and misinterpret posts, and that I do concede when opponents make good points.

And all this is said without one TRACE of an explanation, reasoning, or evidence.

You then tell me this: "as I explain to my students, (objectivism) goes wanting in real world applications."

Tell me, when you explain this to your students, do you also simply assert it as fact - again without evidence OR logic OR even a rough explanation?

If you are as arrogantly presumptuous to them as you are to me, I'd be shocked to learn that they have any respect for you at all. And IF your students can think logically for themselves, I'm sure it's despite you, not because of you.

(And don't be too shocked that I'm this irate about this: did you actually think "as I explain to my students" is a sufficient substitute FOR AN ACTUAL EXPLANATION?)

Above ALL THIS, you present your idiocy as if you're proofreading my work, arrogantly suggesting precisely where I should apologize.

You may be a teacher somewhere else, but you're not a teacher here. And if you think arrogant comments on one's work is irritating when it comes from your teacher, it's INFURIATING when coming from a complete stranger who has offered, as far as can tell, NOTHING of substance to this debate.

Now, if I may be honest about one more quote:

Quote:
Originally posted by chain:
Your postings reveal you to be a huge Rush fan, I was once, *****(I WAS WRONG) I now hear what many others hear, (Joyful, etc)
I don't believe you: what you're saying is that you were a "huge Rush fan" who now hears what other people hear - other people that don't actually listen to the show and simply quote a one-sided editorial that takes Rush completely out of context.

Uh-huh. Right.

Finally, you should end sentences with periods, not commas. I hope you share that little bit of wisdom to your students, and that they benefit from it.

[This message has been edited by Achtung Bubba (edited 03-21-2002).]
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Old 03-22-2002, 12:01 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon:
LOL...these threads are all the same, regardless of who debates in it. Hence why I consciously stopped arguing in it. Good day...

Melon

It appears you consciously stopped the moment I asked for more definitive proof that conservatives are Nazis.

Convenient timing.
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