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Old 02-16-2007, 05:25 PM   #91
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Originally posted by speedracer
Finally, the cultural custom of men showering with men and women showering with women in the locker room is based on the empirical observation that men tend to be sexually attracted to women and women tend to be sexually attracted to men. Most of the rest of society has caught on to the fact that this empirical observation is not universally true, but the sporting world has not. When I go to the gym, I shower at home, and I completely do not understand why locker rooms can't just have individual shower stalls.


what i find interesting is why many women's locker rooms do have individual stalls, but many men's locker rooms don't. i think that's changing, and newer gyms do have men's rooms with individual stalls, but that wasn't how it always was.

i agree that the cultural standard is based in the assumption of heterosexuality, and most people are straight, so it's not an unreasonable standard at all. but what people don't seem to understand is that gay men have adapted to this and are there to shower and get dressed just like anyone else. it only becomes a problem when a striaght man becomes aware of a gay man and this makes him feel uncomfortable, but the problem is entirely the straight man's. i can understand how he might feel a little bit strange at the idea that someone is deriving some aesthetic/sexual pleasure from seeing his naked body, but it is not a gay man's issue it is the straight man's issue for feeling terrified at the thought that someone might be enjoying standing next to him in the shower in the way he would enjoy standing next to a woman in the shower. but if you're not touched or harassed or leered at, you're not violated. relax.

as for showering with a woman, i really have no idea. i've never actually done that, and the discomfort i would feel would be due to the presence of unfamiliar anatomy in the context of showering in the gym and not due to some worry that she's checking me out. heck, i'm flattered when women find me attractive, and i enjoy mildly flirting with women as well, it's all in fun. but there are lines that we're both aware of, and we're all mature enough not to cross them.

finally, i have to post this as it was linked to in Dan Savage's column today:

[q]Straight men: Stop to consider things. And stand up for your gay friends. We have more to offer than your straight friends. We help get you laid (ladies will love the fact you have gay friends, you sexy, sensitive man, you). We will also give you hair-care product advice, baby-sit your kids, and tell your wives that blowjobs are mandatory for any happy relationship and should be administered at least three times per week. Oh, we'll also assure her that the amount of porn you watch is completely normal.

http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Content?oid=21930

[/q]
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Old 02-16-2007, 05:41 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

i can understand how he might feel a little bit strange at the idea that someone is deriving some aesthetic/sexual pleasure from seeing his naked body, but it is not a gay man's issue it is the straight man's issue for feeling terrified at the thought that someone might be enjoying standing next to him in the shower in the way he would enjoy standing next to a woman in the shower. but if you're not touched or harassed or leered at, you're not violated. relax.

[/q]
I'm not here to argue, but I would like to ask you to consider something. If a straight man were to walk into a woman's locker room, take off his clothes and shower next to a woman taking a shower, do you think she would be uncomfortable and nervous about it? Do you think that would be a reasonable reaction for her?

In the same way, I think it's nartural that straight men would feel uncomfortable and nervous at the thought of being undressed in front of a gay man.

As for myself, I'm very shy about levels of undress. I don't like to share a locker room with anyone, male or female. Heck, I don't even like to take off my shirt.
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Old 02-16-2007, 05:46 PM   #93
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But we can't tell which ones have the gay; it's insidious!
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Old 02-16-2007, 05:49 PM   #94
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


I'm not here to argue, but I would like to ask you to consider something. If a straight man were to walk into a woman's locker room, take off his clothes and shower next to a woman taking a shower, do you think she would be uncomfortable and nervous about it? Do you think that would be a reasonable reaction for her?

In the same way, I think it's nartural that straight men would feel uncomfortable and nervous at the thought of being undressed in front of a gay man.

What's the agenda of the man stripping down and showering with the women?

I don't understand the uncomfortableness at all. It's all the same equipment.
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Old 02-16-2007, 05:57 PM   #95
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


I'm not here to argue, but I would like to ask you to consider something. If a straight man were to walk into a woman's locker room, take off his clothes and shower next to a woman taking a shower, do you think she would be uncomfortable and nervous about it? Do you think that would be a reasonable reaction for her?

In the same way, I think it's nartural that straight men would feel uncomfortable and nervous at the thought of being undressed in front of a gay man.


again, gay men and straight men have been showering together since forever. it's not analogous to a straight man walking into the women's locker room because communal same-sex nudity doesn't have a sexual component to it. it's not sexual for a gay man and it's not sexual for a straight man. like i said, i can understand the slight uncomfortableness a straight man might feel if he knew a gay man were showering next to him, but that's his issue and one he needs to deal with. the gay man is doing nothing wrong; he's still a man and has every right to be in the locker room and shower. it's totally practical to gender segregate a locker room, it is not possible to segregate on the basis of sexual orientation.

and, finally, can we really say that "gay man is to straight man as straight man is to striaght woman"?

just how many straight men are raped by gay men?
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Old 02-16-2007, 06:01 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

and, finally, can we really say that "gay man is to straight man as straight man is to striaght woman"?

just how many straight men are raped by gay men?
Given the notorious unreliability of rape statistics, no one has a clue whether straight men or gay men are more inclined to be rapists.

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but there are lines that we're both aware of, and we're all mature enough not to cross them.
Well, this is the line I disagree with (in every possible context), and I think we'll just have to agree to disagree here. I guess you just have more faith in random human beings than I do.
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Old 02-16-2007, 06:05 PM   #97
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Originally posted by speedracer


Given the notorious unreliability of rape statistics, no one has a clue whether straight men or gay men are more inclined to be rapists.



i think that's a cop-out.



Quote:
Well, this is the line I disagree with (in every possible context), and I think we'll just have to agree to disagree here. I guess you just have more faith in random human beings than I do.

i'm not sure i understand you -- do you have any gay friends?
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Old 02-16-2007, 06:11 PM   #98
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest

When a person has sex with a ridiculous number of people, it will of course increase his chances of sleeping with someone who has HIV.

My point wasn't that sex outside of marraige is a sin; my point was that irresponsible behavior increases a person's chances.
This is true. Good point.
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Old 02-16-2007, 06:17 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

i think that's a cop-out.
I think it accurately represents our knowledge of the answer.

Quote:

i'm not sure i understand you -- do you have any gay friends?
Yes, and I wouldn't feel any more uncomfortable showering in front of them than I would in front of a straight male friend.

However, I don't think it's unreasonable to say that

Friend >>> Teammate >>>>>>>>>>> Random person.
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Old 02-16-2007, 07:37 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




and, finally, can we really say that "gay man is to straight man as straight man is to striaght woman"?
I hope so, if not then we straights will never understand you guys

Never heard of a gay man raping a straight (I assume prison rape doesn't count; I don't really think those guys are actually gay). But since rape is understood to be about power, rather than sex, I'd expect there'd be gay rapists, just not as many because there are more straight men than gay men.

Good point about the differences between the male & female locker rooms. In high school our girls' rooms had stalls w/locks, no locks in the boys' stalls, and no doors on many of them. In college (UConn), in the dorm, the womens' showers had curtains between each individual shower; ours had no curtains, just the classic gang shower. And I've looked, not on purpose but everybody's in there naked, unless you're showering with your eyes closed you're bound to catch a glimpse, I don't see the big deal.
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Old 02-16-2007, 07:52 PM   #101
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Re: "I Hate Gay People"

Quote:
Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase

Yes, I regret it. I'm sorry. I shouldn't have said I hate gay people or anything like that," he said. "That was my mistake."

Hardaway has reportedly been removed from further league-related appearances.


Good riddance. What a bigot. It's embarrassing that people still are saying things like this in public in 2007.
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Old 02-16-2007, 07:55 PM   #102
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Re: Re: "I Hate Gay People"

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Originally posted by verte76



Good riddance. What a bigot. It's embarrassing that people still are saying things like this in public in 2007.
It's embarassing that people think it in 2007. It's just plain moronic to say things like this in public.
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Old 02-16-2007, 08:05 PM   #103
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Moronic.............amen.
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Old 02-17-2007, 10:41 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedracer

Yes, and I wouldn't feel any more uncomfortable showering in front of them than I would in front of a straight male friend.

However, I don't think it's unreasonable to say that

Friend >>> Teammate >>>>>>>>>>> Random person.


so ... ultimately this comes down to the fact that you don't want to shower with a group of guys, gay or straight?

actually, i'd rather shower with a stranger than with my best friend since i'm not likely to see the stranger again and, so, who cares what one looks like.
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Old 02-17-2007, 10:50 AM   #105
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I hope so, if not then we straights will never understand you guys


it's interesting, but i don't think we can say that.

i think gay men and straight men are nearly exactly the same in how their sex drives function, and i do think that heteroseuxality and homosexuality are nearly exactly the same thing in that one is attracted -- physically and emotionally -- to either the same or a different gender, and that gay relationships and straight relationships are just as wonderful and fufilling and maddening and stupid and rewarding and depressing as the other.

however, i do think there are differences due to gender differences, and i don't think that gay men lust after straight men in the way that straight men lust after straight women, and the mentioning of rape has more to do with gender inequality/power/physicality than to do with sexual orientation, if that makes sense (sorry, still working on the first cup of coffee of the day).

i will also say that there's nothing quite so acute as the pain a gay person can feel (or, i suppose the converse is true) than to be attracted to someone of a different sexual orientation, because there's no chance you'll ever be together. none. you'd have a better chance with Cameron Diaz than i will ever have with a straight man.

i suppose my main point is that this is stuff gay people have to deal with all the time. gay men know not to look too much in the shower, gay men know that straight men are off limits, gay men know that the gym is a non-sexual arena, gay men are acutely aware of the lines (often in a painful, sometimes sorrowful way) between gay and straight in a way that i don't think as many straight people are.

trust us. we're not going to sex you up in the showers, i promise.

unless you want us to ...







also, i'm a fellow connecticuttian.
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