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Old 02-15-2007, 05:46 PM   #61
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CT, did you learn to hate stupid people or was that your instinct? Oh shit, wrong thread!
I'm sure we all disagree with Mr Hardaways comments. Plus, he didn't exactly do all of those closet homophobes a favor by sharing his views because now everyone thinks he's a bonehead.
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Old 02-15-2007, 05:46 PM   #62
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[q]Ability is the issue -- not orientation
By LZ Granderson
Page 2

Last week, in reaction to John Amaechi's revealing his sexual orientation, I wrote a column suggesting, among other things, that an openly gay player in a major sport would not have as hard a time as some people think. While most of the e-mails I received agreed with the sentiment, I kept reading a variation of this question: How are straight players supposed to act with a gay teammate in the shower? Translation: the gay guy is going to be checking out teammates and trying to have sex with them.

The fact that defensive end Adam Goslin is gay isn't an issue at Washington University in St. Louis.
That certainly was Shavlik Randolph's concern when he said "as long as you don't bring your gayness on me I'm fine." While I find it comical that straight players like Shav are so delusional they believe everybody wants to see them naked, I can understand the concern. After all, this ain't Europe. Here nudity means sex. That's one of the reasons some guys feel it's necessary to gay bash in the locker room -- they want all the naked men around them to know they are not thinking about sex. This overreaction is similar to the one that prevents guys from saying another guy is attractive, as if the admission means they want to sleep with him.

Juvenile, yes, but it is what it is.

And the truth is men know men -- a straight guy in a locker room full of women is going to look, so it's safe to assume a gay guy in a locker room full of men is going to do the same.

Or not.

Meet Adam Goslin, a senior at Washington University in St. Louis. Goslin, a DL on the football team, is not on the DL -- he's openly gay. His family knows, his friends know, the entire football team knows. "Goose," as they call him, started telling folks on campus he was gay around his sophomore year.

"I was really scared at first because I had some really good friends on the team and didn't want to lose them," Goose said. "But after I told the first person, it was easier to tell the next one."

Eventually the word spread and before long even the waterboy knew Goose was gay.

"I didn't get it at first," says running back Scottie Guthrie, the first guy on the team who knew. "My mom had gay friends, but I had never met an openly gay man before. But after a minute or so it was no big deal. I mean, it was Goose -- he's like my best friend."

But dude, what about the shower?

"That's one of the things that cracks me up when people talk about gay teammates," Guthrie says. "How is it that the straight guys are the ones who feel threatened? I mean, what do they think is going to happen, the guy is going to rape them or something? If anything I think it's the gay guy who would feel awkward in that situation."

Joe Lubelski is from Chesterland, Ohio, a small town of about 3,000. He says he's never met a gay person in his life before Goose and was shocked to think one could play football.

"The shower thing popped in my head at first," Lubelski said. "You know, wondering if he was going to look at me or something, but then I realized just how stupid it was to be worried about taking a shower next to somebody. Especially a friend and a teammate.

"I've heard what some of the pros say and I think they are all commenting on things they hadn't really thought of or something they hadn't had to deal with. Here we had to deal with it and for the most part the players are very accepting because it just doesn't matter. A gay teammate is a teammate first and foremost. I'm sure there are some guys who are still a little nervous or whatever, but people are going to realize that another person's personal life has no effect on their life. Especially in the shower, I mean, come on … "

Arden Farhi, a shortstop on the school's baseball team, met Goslin when Goose played baseball his sophomore year. He said Goslin's sexuality wasn't an issue on that team either and calls the whole shower discussion absurd.

Goslin also played baseball during his sophomore year at Washington.

"I mean seriously, what kind of bull---- excuse it that?" Farhi says. "Do the pros really feel threatened in that situation? I can't imagine that they do. What, do they honestly think someone's going to stare at them, or try to attack them or something like that? I know for sure Goose is the one who feels weird and changes quickly and tries to get out of there as soon as possible."

Is that true Goose?

"Being the gay one, you already feel a little awkward because you want to make sure the guys are comfortable," he says. "I've had some teammates joke and say, 'Hey, you checking me out? What do I need to work on?' but it's all in fun. But really, after the game or practice all I want to do is take a shower, clean up and get some food."

So, you never checked out another guy in the locker room?

"No, never. It's not like that."

Have you ever had a crush on a teammate?

"No way. These are my teammates and this is football."

Not even a little crush?

"When you are playing sports, you see these guys every day for months and they become your brothers," he says. "So asking me if I ever had a crush on a teammate is like asking me if I've had a crush on my brother, and that's disgusting.

"Look, I think the whole being naked in the locker room thing is blown out of proportion. If someone's going to help you win, then that should take precedent over a five-minute shower."

Which brings me to this point: Every week the coaching staff hands out "The Hammer Award," which recognizes the player who gave the hardest hits during a game. This season the running joke was they were going to rename it "The Goslin" because Goose kept winning it every week.

"He played so well on the field that hardly anyone ever brought up the gay thing," Guthrie says. "And the funny thing is most of the guys who had an issue with it didn't play that much because they weren't that good."

Guthrie may be on to something. Shav "don't bring your gayness on me " Randolph has a career average of 2.7 points per game and has started only seven games. Perhaps someone's else's "gayness" shouldn't be his concern.

LZ Granderson is a senior writer for ESPN The Magazine and host of the ESPN360 talk show "Game Night." LZ can be reached at l_granderson@yahoo.com.[/q]



although, for whatever it's worth, i wasn't comfortable coming out when i was a collegiate swimmer from 1996-2000, and it was my participation in athletics that probably kept me in the closet until after i graduated. if i were in college today ... who knows?
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Old 02-15-2007, 07:58 PM   #63
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LZ Granderson is a top notch sports reporter

my favorite part about this entire issue is that tim hardaway was doing that interview as a promotion for "NBA Cares."

the irony... it's suffocating.
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Old 02-15-2007, 08:40 PM   #64
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Originally posted by DaveC

It reminds me of an ongoing story here in Canada, where a former CFL player is currently on trial for having had unprotected sex with a few women while he knew he was HIV-positive. Now the women are infected too, and there's a fair amount of outrage out west (he played for Saskatchewan) over this.

Not to derail this thread but I just wanted to correct this.

The former CFL player in question, Trevis Smith, was convicted last week on two counts of aggravated sexual assault. He can get anywhere from two years to life in prison but because of precedent will receive between 2-15 years. His lawyer has said they will appeal.

Also, neither of the women have tested positive for HIV.
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Old 02-15-2007, 10:49 PM   #65
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I think some people early in the thread missed the point. It's not about athletes against gays. It's about straight men in general. The ignorance is not limited to athletes. A majority of straight men in American are most likely ignorant on the issue. It's an issue most prefer not to bring up, thus the ignorance.
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Old 02-16-2007, 12:06 AM   #66
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Originally posted by phillyfan26
I think some people early in the thread missed the point. It's not about athletes against gays. It's about straight men in general. The ignorance is not limited to athletes. A majority of straight men in American are most likely ignorant on the issue. It's an issue most prefer not to bring up, thus the ignorance.
350 odd NBA players.
A % are straight.
A % are gay.
A % don't care.
A % do.

ie, normal.
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Old 02-16-2007, 12:14 AM   #67
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Originally posted by phillyfan26
I think some people early in the thread missed the point. It's not about athletes against gays. It's about straight men in general. The ignorance is not limited to athletes. A majority of straight men in American are most likely ignorant on the issue. It's an issue most prefer not to bring up, thus the ignorance.
Yeah, I said this a few pages ago and was then told that I should poll straight men.
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Old 02-16-2007, 12:24 AM   #68
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Yeah, I said this a few pages ago and was then told that I should poll straight men.
'Tis true indeed. I do think it is a point that needs to be emphasized that the fact that it's an athlete means very little.

The polling of straight men on the other hand...
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Old 02-16-2007, 12:20 PM   #69
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So what? You can´t make everybody love you.

Give it time. Soon enough it will go away just like homophobia has definitely decreased with time.
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Old 02-16-2007, 12:37 PM   #70
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Give it time. Soon enough it will go away just like homophobia has definitely decreased with time.
Homophobia has gone down as awareness has gone up. There is still too much ignorance out there, so the awareness needs to continue increasing. Movements against any type of prejudice rely on acceptance. Awareness can help this. People will not accept homosexuality based on many of the stereotypes out there right now.
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Old 02-16-2007, 12:42 PM   #71
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Has homophobia really gone down, or are today's homophobes just more discreet? Do you think people can learn not to hate/fear gay people?
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Old 02-16-2007, 12:48 PM   #72
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The only way they'll learn is through education and understanding. Plus, people being raised to believe that being is gay is unnatural. If we raise our children to believe that being gay is ok, then we're starting them off on the right foot. I'm just going to guess that maybe Hardaway was raised to believe that gay people are bad or inferior.
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Old 02-16-2007, 12:53 PM   #73
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Originally posted by CTU2fan
Has homophobia really gone down, or are today's homophobes just more discreet? Do you think people can learn not to hate/fear gay people?


i absolutely think that homophobia has gone down in the past 15 years, and especially in the last 5. the condmenation of Hardaway's comments had been universal, and while it hasn't provoked the uproar that, say, Michael Richards did, it's clear that most people find his comments unseemly at best.

sure, there was a bit of a backlash in 2003/4 when the Massachusetts courts declared that gay people were entitled to the same rights as straight people, but that's calmed down, and the younger you go, the more pro-gay you get. i expect to see a growing number of states adopt Civil Unions in the next 5 years, and i would imagine we'll see near universal gay marriage -- or, simply, "marriage" -- in my lifetime. religious homophobia has always been on shaky theological ground to begin with, and they're sounding increasingly desperate and they know they're on the wrong side of history.

i really am optimistic. the biggest factor that determines one's attitude towards homosexuality is actually knowing a gay person. it's easier to come out now than ever before, so if you're gay, come out.
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Old 02-16-2007, 03:10 PM   #74
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Originally posted by CTU2fan
I honestly don't see what the big deal is, even if a gay man was checking you out. I mean seriously, big freaking deal. I could care less if another dude checks out my ass...of course I'm not all that cute so I'd probably be thankful anybody scoped my booty. People need to get over it already.

I hate stupid people. Honestly, why the hell should it matter to anyone that another person is gay? It's stupid.
Not that I defend any of Hardaway's other comments, but the bit about showering together is perfectly reasonable. Coed volleyball teams don't all shower together, do they?
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Old 02-16-2007, 03:11 PM   #75
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(Eh, never mind. Just a comment I decided not to say, but nothing controversial. )
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