"I Hate Gay People"

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CT, did you learn to hate stupid people or was that your instinct? Oh shit, wrong thread!
I'm sure we all disagree with Mr Hardaways comments. Plus, he didn't exactly do all of those closet homophobes a favor by sharing his views because now everyone thinks he's a bonehead.
 
[q]Ability is the issue -- not orientation
By LZ Granderson
Page 2

Last week, in reaction to John Amaechi's revealing his sexual orientation, I wrote a column suggesting, among other things, that an openly gay player in a major sport would not have as hard a time as some people think. While most of the e-mails I received agreed with the sentiment, I kept reading a variation of this question: How are straight players supposed to act with a gay teammate in the shower? Translation: the gay guy is going to be checking out teammates and trying to have sex with them.

The fact that defensive end Adam Goslin is gay isn't an issue at Washington University in St. Louis.
That certainly was Shavlik Randolph's concern when he said "as long as you don't bring your gayness on me I'm fine." While I find it comical that straight players like Shav are so delusional they believe everybody wants to see them naked, I can understand the concern. After all, this ain't Europe. Here nudity means sex. That's one of the reasons some guys feel it's necessary to gay bash in the locker room -- they want all the naked men around them to know they are not thinking about sex. This overreaction is similar to the one that prevents guys from saying another guy is attractive, as if the admission means they want to sleep with him.

Juvenile, yes, but it is what it is.

And the truth is men know men -- a straight guy in a locker room full of women is going to look, so it's safe to assume a gay guy in a locker room full of men is going to do the same.

Or not.

Meet Adam Goslin, a senior at Washington University in St. Louis. Goslin, a DL on the football team, is not on the DL -- he's openly gay. His family knows, his friends know, the entire football team knows. "Goose," as they call him, started telling folks on campus he was gay around his sophomore year.

"I was really scared at first because I had some really good friends on the team and didn't want to lose them," Goose said. "But after I told the first person, it was easier to tell the next one."

Eventually the word spread and before long even the waterboy knew Goose was gay.

"I didn't get it at first," says running back Scottie Guthrie, the first guy on the team who knew. "My mom had gay friends, but I had never met an openly gay man before. But after a minute or so it was no big deal. I mean, it was Goose -- he's like my best friend."

But dude, what about the shower?

"That's one of the things that cracks me up when people talk about gay teammates," Guthrie says. "How is it that the straight guys are the ones who feel threatened? I mean, what do they think is going to happen, the guy is going to rape them or something? If anything I think it's the gay guy who would feel awkward in that situation."

Joe Lubelski is from Chesterland, Ohio, a small town of about 3,000. He says he's never met a gay person in his life before Goose and was shocked to think one could play football.

"The shower thing popped in my head at first," Lubelski said. "You know, wondering if he was going to look at me or something, but then I realized just how stupid it was to be worried about taking a shower next to somebody. Especially a friend and a teammate.

"I've heard what some of the pros say and I think they are all commenting on things they hadn't really thought of or something they hadn't had to deal with. Here we had to deal with it and for the most part the players are very accepting because it just doesn't matter. A gay teammate is a teammate first and foremost. I'm sure there are some guys who are still a little nervous or whatever, but people are going to realize that another person's personal life has no effect on their life. Especially in the shower, I mean, come on … "

Arden Farhi, a shortstop on the school's baseball team, met Goslin when Goose played baseball his sophomore year. He said Goslin's sexuality wasn't an issue on that team either and calls the whole shower discussion absurd.

Goslin also played baseball during his sophomore year at Washington.

"I mean seriously, what kind of bull---- excuse it that?" Farhi says. "Do the pros really feel threatened in that situation? I can't imagine that they do. What, do they honestly think someone's going to stare at them, or try to attack them or something like that? I know for sure Goose is the one who feels weird and changes quickly and tries to get out of there as soon as possible."

Is that true Goose?

"Being the gay one, you already feel a little awkward because you want to make sure the guys are comfortable," he says. "I've had some teammates joke and say, 'Hey, you checking me out? What do I need to work on?' but it's all in fun. But really, after the game or practice all I want to do is take a shower, clean up and get some food."

So, you never checked out another guy in the locker room?

"No, never. It's not like that."

Have you ever had a crush on a teammate?

"No way. These are my teammates and this is football."

Not even a little crush?

"When you are playing sports, you see these guys every day for months and they become your brothers," he says. "So asking me if I ever had a crush on a teammate is like asking me if I've had a crush on my brother, and that's disgusting.

"Look, I think the whole being naked in the locker room thing is blown out of proportion. If someone's going to help you win, then that should take precedent over a five-minute shower."

Which brings me to this point: Every week the coaching staff hands out "The Hammer Award," which recognizes the player who gave the hardest hits during a game. This season the running joke was they were going to rename it "The Goslin" because Goose kept winning it every week.

"He played so well on the field that hardly anyone ever brought up the gay thing," Guthrie says. "And the funny thing is most of the guys who had an issue with it didn't play that much because they weren't that good."

Guthrie may be on to something. Shav "don't bring your gayness on me " Randolph has a career average of 2.7 points per game and has started only seven games. Perhaps someone's else's "gayness" shouldn't be his concern.

LZ Granderson is a senior writer for ESPN The Magazine and host of the ESPN360 talk show "Game Night." LZ can be reached at l_granderson@yahoo.com.[/q]



although, for whatever it's worth, i wasn't comfortable coming out when i was a collegiate swimmer from 1996-2000, and it was my participation in athletics that probably kept me in the closet until after i graduated. if i were in college today ... who knows?
 
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DaveC said:

It reminds me of an ongoing story here in Canada, where a former CFL player is currently on trial for having had unprotected sex with a few women while he knew he was HIV-positive. Now the women are infected too, and there's a fair amount of outrage out west (he played for Saskatchewan) over this.


Not to derail this thread but I just wanted to correct this.

The former CFL player in question, Trevis Smith, was convicted last week on two counts of aggravated sexual assault. He can get anywhere from two years to life in prison but because of precedent will receive between 2-15 years. His lawyer has said they will appeal.

Also, neither of the women have tested positive for HIV.
 
I think some people early in the thread missed the point. It's not about athletes against gays. It's about straight men in general. The ignorance is not limited to athletes. A majority of straight men in American are most likely ignorant on the issue. It's an issue most prefer not to bring up, thus the ignorance.
 
phillyfan26 said:
I think some people early in the thread missed the point. It's not about athletes against gays. It's about straight men in general. The ignorance is not limited to athletes. A majority of straight men in American are most likely ignorant on the issue. It's an issue most prefer not to bring up, thus the ignorance.

350 odd NBA players.
A % are straight.
A % are gay.
A % don't care.
A % do.

ie, normal.
 
phillyfan26 said:
I think some people early in the thread missed the point. It's not about athletes against gays. It's about straight men in general. The ignorance is not limited to athletes. A majority of straight men in American are most likely ignorant on the issue. It's an issue most prefer not to bring up, thus the ignorance.

Yeah, I said this a few pages ago and was then told that I should poll straight men. :|
 
anitram said:


Yeah, I said this a few pages ago and was then told that I should poll straight men. :|

'Tis true indeed. I do think it is a point that needs to be emphasized that the fact that it's an athlete means very little.

The polling of straight men on the other hand...
 
BrownEyedBoy said:
Give it time. Soon enough it will go away just like homophobia has definitely decreased with time.

Homophobia has gone down as awareness has gone up. There is still too much ignorance out there, so the awareness needs to continue increasing. Movements against any type of prejudice rely on acceptance. Awareness can help this. People will not accept homosexuality based on many of the stereotypes out there right now.
 
Has homophobia really gone down, or are today's homophobes just more discreet? Do you think people can learn not to hate/fear gay people?
 
The only way they'll learn is through education and understanding. Plus, people being raised to believe that being is gay is unnatural. If we raise our children to believe that being gay is ok, then we're starting them off on the right foot. I'm just going to guess that maybe Hardaway was raised to believe that gay people are bad or inferior.
 
CTU2fan said:
Has homophobia really gone down, or are today's homophobes just more discreet? Do you think people can learn not to hate/fear gay people?



i absolutely think that homophobia has gone down in the past 15 years, and especially in the last 5. the condmenation of Hardaway's comments had been universal, and while it hasn't provoked the uproar that, say, Michael Richards did, it's clear that most people find his comments unseemly at best.

sure, there was a bit of a backlash in 2003/4 when the Massachusetts courts declared that gay people were entitled to the same rights as straight people, but that's calmed down, and the younger you go, the more pro-gay you get. i expect to see a growing number of states adopt Civil Unions in the next 5 years, and i would imagine we'll see near universal gay marriage -- or, simply, "marriage" -- in my lifetime. religious homophobia has always been on shaky theological ground to begin with, and they're sounding increasingly desperate and they know they're on the wrong side of history.

i really am optimistic. the biggest factor that determines one's attitude towards homosexuality is actually knowing a gay person. it's easier to come out now than ever before, so if you're gay, come out.
 
CTU2fan said:
I honestly don't see what the big deal is, even if a gay man was checking you out. I mean seriously, big freaking deal. I could care less if another dude checks out my ass...of course I'm not all that cute so I'd probably be thankful anybody scoped my booty. :) People need to get over it already.

I hate stupid people. Honestly, why the hell should it matter to anyone that another person is gay? It's stupid.

Not that I defend any of Hardaway's other comments, but the bit about showering together is perfectly reasonable. Coed volleyball teams don't all shower together, do they?
 
speedracer said:


Not that I defend any of Hardaway's other comments, but the bit about showering together is perfectly reasonable. Coed volleyball teams don't all shower together, do they?



i'd bet most straight men have showered next to a gay man and never known it. and most men check each other out in the shower. it's not sexual. it's a comparison, just how do you measure up?

however, straight men aren't used to showering with women. gay men are perfectly used to showering with men, and they have the same equipment, so it's really rather insulting to think that a gay man would be turned into a drooling, panting, fully erect caricature that we assume straight men would be if they were in the women's locker room. gay men learn very early how to conduct themselves with proper decorum when in a situation where they might possibly be with naked bodies they are sexually attracted to, so please don't put whatever pavalovian response a naked lady elicits in a straight man onto a gay man. we're used to this. and we probably look less so as not to be rude.

and, besides, they're your freaking teammates. i was on a swim team. men don't come more beautifully built than they do on the swim team. and i still didn't want to have sex with a single one of them.

and, ultimately, can't you get over the fact that, gosh, the man standing next to you just might be sexually attracted to your perfect body and big swinging penis but, guess what, he's not going to stare! or try to fellate you! or try to make you gay! and you know why? becuase he's a civilized adult!

get freaking over it, straight men. the problem is your own insecurity.
 
speedracer said:


Not that I defend any of Hardaway's other comments, but the bit about showering together is perfectly reasonable. Coed volleyball teams don't all shower together, do they?
Volleyball, girls with long legs and shower - i'll brb :wink:
 
Irvine511 said:

i'd bet most straight men have showered next to a gay man and never known it. and most men check each other out in the shower. it's not sexual. it's a comparison, just how do you measure up?

however, straight men aren't used to showering with women. gay men are perfectly used to showering with men, and they have the same equipment, so it's really rather insulting to think that a gay man would be turned into a drooling, panting, fully erect caricature that we assume straight men would be if they were in the women's locker room. gay men learn very early how to conduct themselves with proper decorum when in a situation where they might possibly be with naked bodies they are sexually attracted to, so please don't put whatever pavalovian response a naked lady elicits in a straight man onto a gay man. we're used to this. and we probably look less so as not to be rude.

and, besides, they're your freaking teammates. i was on a swim team. men don't come more beautifully built than they do on the swim team. and i still didn't want to have sex with a single one of them.

and, ultimately, can't you get over the fact that, gosh, the man standing next to you just might be sexually attracted to your perfect body and big swinging penis but, guess what, he's not going to stare! or try to fellate you! or try to make you gay! and you know why? becuase he's a civilized adult!

get freaking over it, straight men. the problem is your own insecurity.

Not every straight man wants to shower with women (I certainly don't). If person A and person B have to see each other naked, and if person B finds person A sexually attractive but not vice versa, I don't think it's unreasonable for person A to feel uncomfortable, regardless of decorum.
 
speedracer said:


Not every straight man wants to shower with women (I certainly don't). If person A and person B have to see each other naked, and if person B finds person A sexually attractive but not vice versa, I don't think it's unreasonable for person A to feel uncomfortable, regardless of decorum.

So what you are saying here is
as a straight man
you prefer no gay men in your locker room or showers.

If you really think about this for awhile -
you should be able to realize how silly it is.
 
speedracer said:


Not every straight man wants to shower with women (I certainly don't). If person A and person B have to see each other naked, and if person B finds person A sexually attractive but not vice versa, I don't think it's unreasonable for person A to feel uncomfortable, regardless of decorum.



get over yourself. it's thoroughly unreasonable. work out your own issues, don't make others suffer for your own insecurities and unfounded paranoia. you're perfectly free to find some place else to shower if the thought of a soapy gay man washing his toned abs next to you makes you uncomfortable. you are not free to tell him to go someplace else.
 
deep said:


So what you are saying here is
as a straight man
you prefer no gay men in your locker room or showers.

If you really think about this for awhile -
you should be able to realize how silly it is.



i'm sure there are many Southern golf clubs that fully understand this mentality.

it makes me uncomfortable when certain kinds of people watch me golf.
 
speedracer said:


Not every straight man wants to shower with women (I certainly don't). If person A and person B have to see each other naked, and if person B finds person A sexually attractive but not vice versa, I don't think it's unreasonable for person A to feel uncomfortable, regardless of decorum.

And there are some who are uncomfortable showering in front of others, period.

Why all the hang ups? Should all OB GYN's be women? Are you going to check your tailors sexuality before letting him fit you?
 
Irvine511 said:

get over yourself. it's thoroughly unreasonable. work out your own issues, don't make others suffer for your own insecurities and unfounded paranoia. you're perfectly free to find some place else to shower if the thought of a soapy gay man washing his toned abs next to you makes you uncomfortable. you are not free to tell him to go someplace else.

Would you feel comfortable showering with a straight woman?
 
Irvine511 said:




i would never let a heterosexual cut my hair.

i'm semi-serious.

:shrug:

I've only had one straight man cut my hair(in my post college life) and he was pretty damn good, but once I moved away from Dallas, the ones I trust are women and gay men.

My current stylist is a gay woman, go figure.
 
speedracer said:


Would you feel comfortable showering with a straight woman?



i wouldn't be sexually aroused, but this still misses the point: it is the cultural custom for men to shower with men, and for women to shower with women. i have been showering with men since i started swimming. no one is bothered by me, and i'm not bothered by anyone else. if someone were bothered by the presence of a gay man in a locker room, then they are free to find somewhere else to shower they are not free to exclude someone from their locker room on the basis of sexual orientation.

what you should be asking is whether or not i would feel comfortable showering next to a man i was sexuall attracted to. and the answer is yes. i've been showering with men for a long time and i've yet to pop a woody.
 
When one is showering in public with others
the goal is to get clean not hook-up

I have showered, bathed, dressed and undressed with girlfriends
I may have had different reasons and a different agenda then


when I am dressing, showering with men,
(gay or straight, who really knows for sure) I am indifferent to them and they are indifferent to me

because we both have no other agenda
 
Irvine511 said:

i wouldn't be sexually aroused, but this still misses the point: it is the cultural custom for men to shower with men, and for women to shower with women. i have been showering with men since i started swimming. no one is bothered by me, and i'm not bothered by anyone else. if someone were bothered by the presence of a gay man in a locker room, then they are free to find somewhere else to shower they are not free to exclude someone from their locker room on the basis of sexual orientation.

First of all, I don't advocate forcing gays to dress and shower somewhere else. I should have made this clear at the outset, so I apologize for that.

Second, when I posed the question to you, the point was to figure out whether you'd feel uncomfortable showering with a straight woman who may or may not be aroused by your body.

Finally, the cultural custom of men showering with men and women showering with women in the locker room is based on the empirical observation that men tend to be sexually attracted to women and women tend to be sexually attracted to men. Most of the rest of society has caught on to the fact that this empirical observation is not universally true, but the sporting world has not. When I go to the gym, I shower at home, and I completely do not understand why locker rooms can't just have individual shower stalls.
 
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