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Old 09-05-2006, 10:15 AM   #16
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If you guys read the Bible, Jesus says in plain easy to understand language, that this type of thing is easily possible.

"I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

"For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you."

And theres heaps of others. So as a Christian, if you have enough faith, why can't he walk on water? Or was Jesus simply lying? (Or another more rational explaination - the whole notion of miracles is total bullshit, which is pretty much what I'm alluding to)
Or Is God just too busy removing cancer from people which is ALL he is capable of nowdays.....geez the days of mythology and lies were much more interesting in terms of miracles.
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Old 09-05-2006, 10:19 AM   #17
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Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written: 'He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.' "

Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.' "

--Matthew 4: 5-7 (NIV)
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Old 09-05-2006, 10:21 AM   #18
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Correction; removing cancer from people who are engaged in anti-cancer therapies and taking a whole lot of drugs.
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Old 09-05-2006, 10:22 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by yolland
Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written: 'He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.' "

Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.' "

--Matthew 4: 5-7 (NIV)
And why ask if the sky is blue, clauses like this subvert reason and inhibit human potential.
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Old 09-05-2006, 10:26 AM   #20
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The Bible has a myriad of miraculous events that put God to the test. Walking on water (absolutely pointless). Turning water into wine (was that REALLY necessary?). There is no reason why these types of things cannot be done today with enough faith according to the Bible.

Yolland or anyone else, adress the quotes I gave you and please tell me how I am misinterpreting them. Remember, according to you Christians, God wrote the Bible and he meant what he wrote.
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Old 09-05-2006, 10:27 AM   #21
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Originally posted by AussieU2fanman
Or another more rational explaination - the whole notion of miracles is total bullshit, which is pretty much what I'm alluding to
Mircacles are not bullshit. You do not believe in them because you have not seen one or encountered one. I have experienced 2 that I know of; Lord only knows if there are others that have happened to me that I am not even aware of.
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Old 09-05-2006, 10:29 AM   #22
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How does this passage in particular "subvert reason"?

Anyhow, my point was that you can also find scriptural bases for NOT concluding that if you really believe, well then you can and should make an example of yourself by jumping out the window and demonstrating to everyone that God will enable you to fly to safety. The stuff about fig trees and mountains doesn't involve self-endangerment anyhow.

ETA: And Aussie, I am not one of "you Christians" nor do I believe that "the Bible was written by God." Your sneering straw-man approach to framing these kinds of arguments is insulting and uncalled for, and it doesn't make for constructive debate either.
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Old 09-05-2006, 10:31 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by AussieU2fanman
The Bible has a myriad of miraculous events that put God to the test. Walking on water (absolutely pointless).

Yolland or anyone else, adress the quotes I gave you and please tell me how I am misinterpreting them.

Do you even know the story of Christ walking on water? If you did, you would know that (A) it was not pointless. It was (B) Christ putting Peter to the test, not the other way around. Christ was testing Peter's faith. Peter walked on the water until he looked down and became scared.

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Turning water into wine (was that REALLY necessary?).
He did it at the request of his mother.
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Old 09-05-2006, 10:38 AM   #24
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Correction; removing cancer from people who are engaged in anti-cancer therapies and taking a whole lot of drugs.
Gods role as a miracle worker has been SHARPLY decreasing ever since science and education has been mitigating ignorance. In the old days, if people prayed to God for rain for their crops and rain came, it was a miracle hands down. But now we know its not due to our knowledge abot metereology. In the old days, every child birth was considered a miracle from God because we couldn't understand how a child could be conceived and born. Now we don't praise God for a childbirth because we understand exactly what the process is.

This filling in of holes in our human understanding with God is known as 'God of the Gaps,' and nowdays God's role has virtually been totally relegated to simply removing cancers from Christians. We ADMIT we don't know anything about cancer (thats why we can't cure it!) so this is NO different than explaining how rain comes about in the olden days (ie. with God).
Sooner or later, we're going to cure cancer and understand alot more about its behaviour, and at that time, God will have NO ROLE IN SOCIETY WHATSOEVER, and foolish reasoning will be abolished forever.
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Old 09-05-2006, 10:45 AM   #25
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"I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

"For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you."

I don't think there is any room for misinterpretation here. Explain why I am wrong in interpreting these passages, and tell me what he meant please.
I don't think I'm coming along in a menacing manner yolland. I didn't realise Christians would be insulted if I assume they believe God divinely inspired people to write the Bible. I thought that was a paramount selling point of the religion.
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Old 09-05-2006, 10:59 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by AussieU2fanman
"I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

"For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you."

I don't think there is any room for misinterpretation here. Explain why I am wrong in interpreting these passages, and tell me what he meant please.
I don't think I'm coming along in a menacing manner yolland. I didn't realise Christians would be insulted if I assume they believe God divinely inspired people to write the Bible. I thought that was a paramount selling point of the religion.
I'm not insulted. I do believe that anything is possible with God. I believe that everything you quoted can be done if (A) the Lord wills it and (B) if the person has 100% faith. Of course, (B) is the problem. People may have 100% faith that God can do those things, but I don't know how anyone could have 100% faith, without any doubt, that he/she could do it himself/herself.
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