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Old 03-06-2003, 03:04 PM   #61
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Originally posted by melon


So if one of them was gay and had a same-sex spouse, would you be against them adopting children? Or would you be against it?

Melon
I don't have to worry about it. They are straight, they were born that way.

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Old 03-06-2003, 03:10 PM   #62
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How amusing...Western cultural bigotries rear its ugly head again. What about a lesbian couple? It always goes down to disgust over gay males, mostly because society immediately thinks of how children would be raised, if done by two straight males. Men should be insulted by such a statement, because it implies that men are automatically bad parents and women are automatically good parents. How often does the court system, in divorce cases, give the children to the mother? That's right. Almost always.

FYI, it is a phenomena, but, if you didn't know this, in both gay and lesbian couples, one usually takes on the emotional equivalent of the opposite sex. The "dominant" (father) figure and the "subordinate" (mother) figure. I think the best couples are the ones that don't take either polar opposite and have both elements--and that happens a lot.

Trust me on this. You don't have to worry about this.

Melon
Melon, for once I am going to tell you to grow up.

I used the gay male as an example, not out of any personal aversion to gay males, but for your benefit I will invert the equation and also state that it is impossible for a lesbian female to assume the role of the father that a boy or girl needs.

I hate to say it but it sounds like there is a bit of personal experience being injected here, whereas I am approached it purely from what I had learned in my studies, after your initially broad claim that studies had shown...etc..
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Old 03-06-2003, 03:23 PM   #63
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Melon, for once I am going to tell you to grow up.
And, for once, I'm going to tell you to shove it. Don't throw some pedantic statements like that in here.

I hate these discussions, and I'm finished with it.

I know how to craft studies myself, knowing full well how easy it is to skew the results with mere word choice changes in questionnaires, and maybe you'll understand how bad these things are when you realize that a sweeping generalization is thrown at some very core part of who you are--and then used to institutionalize discrimination.

Can you imagine what would happen if a study came out making a sweeping generalization about heterosexuals, as if they were all the same--no matter their nationality, their race, their gender, their age, their education level, their income, their marital status, etc.? We wouldn't think of doing such a thing, and, as we know, well-crafted studies don't make sweeping generalizations about all heterosexuals. But they are done against homosexuals constantly...and perhaps you can see why I can be some "angry minority." If you can't see why I'm offended by your statements, then it is you that needs to grow up.

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Old 03-06-2003, 03:49 PM   #64
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Originally posted by melon


And, for once, I'm going to tell you to shove it. Don't throw some pedantic statements like that in here.

I hate these discussions, and I'm finished with it.
I told you that because it is clear that for the first time in as long as I can remember, you are clearly losing control of your normally objective unemotional composure.


The studies I'm referring to, I WILL REPEAT, had nothing to do with the sexual persuasions of the participants, unlike the ones (that most probably would be biased) you made vague reference to that were trying to assess the effect of parental sexuality on children.

Again, they were factoring in two scenarios: a. child with both male or female parent and b. child with only male or female parent. It stands to reason that a father-less girl with one mother could potentially have the same challenges as a father-less boy with 2 mothers, 3 mothers, a mother who is a doctor and a mother who is a horse breeder or whatever other variation one can imagine. The bottom line is the girl is still lacking a father.

Now as, for your comment on generalizations, as I've already spoken to the nature of the studies I was referring to, some personal experience with generalizations. Living amongst one of the largest concentration of gays in North America, I have spent the better part of my adult life listening to my gay associates make somewhat humourously/somewhat negatively stereotypical generalizations of heterosexuals and I get teased all the time. Things like 'when am I going to come out', 'only a gay male can truly understand a woman's needs', 'i bet you let her...' and things of that nature.

However, re-reading my comments, I see no interjection of any bias from those experiences and others unfortunately far more serious (but not to be disclosed on this forum) whatsoever.

On the other hand, Melon, you have gotten all righteously indignant clearly based on your own experience. On a couple of posts you weren't even typing properly, you were so mad.

As I mentioned earlier, I'm quite shocked, but everyone has their 'button' I suppose.

For as much as it's worth, I need say no more on the topic, as I'm pretty sure I've clarified it all, and my opinion will not change anyways.
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Old 03-06-2003, 03:57 PM   #65
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Originally posted by gabrielvox
I told you that because it is clear that for the first time in as long as I can remember, you are clearly losing control of your normally objective unemotional composure.

As I mentioned earlier, I'm quite shocked, but everyone has their 'button' I suppose.
We agree on two things. I'm not stoic all the time.

For what it is worth, I don't hold grudges; so let's just let this go, and move on.

Melon
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Old 03-06-2003, 10:16 PM   #66
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Originally posted by gabrielvox


The simple fact is that gay marriages and adoptions have not been around long enough or in significant enough numbers for exhaustive studies to be performed in this regard.
.....

And from the studies that are out there, the problems that I noted and learned about centred more on some of the children's natural inclination to form heterosexual relationships, but having conflict with a deep-seated issue of displeasing or somehow going contrary to their gay parent's overt or implied wishes, much like a child may harbor a secret guilt for becoming an actor rather than following in his father's footsteps and taking over the family business.

Now, as for the decades of research that HAVE been carried out on well-adjusted adults of all sexual persuasions, the studies are conclusive that a person, male or female, requires the proper mix of masculine and feminine adult influence on a daily/regular basis to grow into a well rounded person. A gay couple cannot ever give that to a child, and there is no study now or in the next 100 years that will be able to disprove that.

Therefore, putting aside any personal or societal beliefs on what is a 'normal' or 'abnormal' family, for the benefit of future generations of children I am against gay couple adoptions.
First, you say that gay adoptions haven't been around long enough for exhuastive studies, then you go ahead and quote some studies (without identifying "who paid for them"). Then you quote conclusions from these studies to show why you think gay parents are incomplete parents. Then you declare that somehow no one will ever prove that gay parents will be adequate parents. Then, my favorite, you insist that it's all just for the children, no personal bias on your part, oh no.

THEN, you get pissed off when people call you on it, and you try to back pedal and say that you didn't quote studies that included gay parents!! Then how could you conclude that gays shouldn't be allowed to adopt??? Following your logic, all single parents shouldn't be allowed to keep their children, and single staight people shouldn't be allowed to adopt!

Please don't try to hide your bigotry behind research! I'm not as generous as melon; I am disappointed that you think this way, gabriel. If you just go ahead and admit that gay parents make you uncomfortable, that's a start. But to hide behind research that doesn't even prove your point is really stretching the limits of credibility.
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Old 03-06-2003, 10:19 PM   #67
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I'm not as generous as melon; I am disappointed that you think this way, gabriel. [/B]
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Old 03-06-2003, 10:37 PM   #68
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Thanks, Dread.
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Old 03-06-2003, 11:15 PM   #69
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Originally posted by paxetaurora
Please consider spinning off further debates about homosexuality/gay adoption into a separate thread. I know there are no hijackers here; just a friendly reminder...
It seems some people temporarily lost the ability to read, perhaps friendly reminders aren't very effective. melon and Gabrielvox, I am surprised at the way you both delt with this.
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