I Don't Like Conservatism - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 08-14-2001, 07:55 AM   #1
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 05:24 AM
I Don't Like Conservatism

These are my opinions. Feel free to respond, knowing 1) this isn't the gospel truth, and 2) I do not intend to offend anyone personally. If you do not agree to these terms, then get out of this topic!

1) I think conservatism is inherently evil. I think it is evil wearing a shroud of goodness...perhaps the greatest evil of them all. I think it is conservatives that advance the destruction of the world in their attempts to 'save the world.' And, of course, I cannot prove this. It is something that has sat in the annals of my conscience for years.

2) Conservatism tends to expouse religion, but they are wrong 75% of the time. I have read chapter-verse quotes on signs to justify hatred of people, and when I go back to my own Bible, I find it has nothing to do with what they hate. I have read more conservative translations of the Bible and they are generally the loosest in their translations! More 'liberal' translations use their basis on the original Greek/Hebrew words. 'Conservative' translations tend to just use the traditional translation and just expound on it. For instance, in a copy of the NIV, the Sodom and Gomorrah passage states, 'Bring out your men so that we may have sex with them.' I couldn't be more angrier on that, especially since the word, 'sex,' isn't even used in the Hebrew text. I would have preferred the original translation, 'Bring out your men so that we may know them.' Why? This passage is quoted like 5 different times later in the Bible and they don't refer to it as meaning anything sexual. I think it is poor scholarship mounted with conservative bigotry.

3) Conservatism expound religion, while also expounding vicious free-market capitalism. Once again, the advancement of the destruction of the world (e.g., sinking the third-world into poverty and subservience to multinational corporations), while thinking they are doing good.

4) Conservatism forces their beliefs onto everyone else. Liberalism, while you may not like it, at least gives you the option to choose your fate. If it were up to extreme conservatives, there would be maybe 5 religions--all Calvinist Protestant sects. We wouldn't be allowed to do anything--liquor would probably be banned, all non-Christians would be either killed or wholly silenced, homosexuals would be killed, movies would be censored, free speech would be censored, schools would teach nothing but tripe interspersed with religion, science would die altogether as all things that contradict the Bible would be made devoid, pseudo-science would reign, media would be a Soviet-style propaganda arm, and we'd be forced to the whims of some theocratic despot. We'd have repeated many of the same mistakes that led to the Reformation. In liberalism, at least, you're fully allowed to do most of these things if you really want to as long as you don't hurt anyone.

5) It's just as hypocritical as any of their complaints against liberals--while complaining of 'liberal censorship,' they have plenty of their own censorship. Whatever happened to that post by Satan? It was definitely bordering on poor taste, but, in reading it, it has just as much a place on this forum as anything here. It never went out of hand, but because conservatives didn't like the scathing criticism of their ideology, it was closed. And yet, a generally baseless original post on hating liberalism was upheld. How interesting.

6) It's incredibly revisionist. Look at the 'Founding Fathers' tripe we hear. We always hear how the founding fathers intended America to be this Christian state, but it couldn't be more wrong! Most all of our founding fathers were agnostics or believers of what the 700 Club would call, 'New-Age religions.' Christianity went into a decline in the Americas first after the failure of Puritanism after the witch trials and almost completely after the collapse of the Anglicanism with the British defeat in the American revolution. Our founding fathers were heavily influenced by Enlightenment religions that came out of the French Revolution. By the time that Christianity became reborn in America, it was 1838 and they were all dead. When Jefferson wrote his treatise on the 'separation of church and state' in the First Amendment in 1801 (which is where that phrase came from), he meant exactly as it's currently interpreted. He'd be rolling in his grave over the current 'faith-based' plan that Bush has. Plus, need I remind you, the 'one nation under God' part of the Pledge of Allegiance wasn't originally in there. It was added by President Eisenhower in the mid-1950s.

7) Read that 'I'm a Bad American' post. Need I say more?

Well, overall, what I want out of this post is a real discussion--no calls for deletion. And no, I'm not some unmovable individual. I'm always more than happy to modify my beliefs...that's what a discussion is all about.

Take care all, and to the conservatives in this forum: don't take what I wrote personally. It's a post on an ideology, not the people in here. I would be genuinely interested in what you have to say on this post, as long as it's a fairly intelligent retort.

Melon

------------------
«Confused by thoughts, we experience duality in life. Unencumbered by ideas, the enlightened see the one reality.» - Hui-neng (638-713)
__________________

__________________
melon is offline  
Old 08-14-2001, 10:04 AM   #2
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 05:24 AM
Melon, you and I really know how to stir things up, don't we?

At least YOU had the foresight to spell out in black and white that you don't intend to offend.
__________________

__________________
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 08-14-2001, 11:05 AM   #3
Babyface
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 6
Local Time: 10:24 AM
melon, you have a very large ego. This is obvious by your drive to prove that you are right. You always have to start a post refuting what others believe if it isn't what you believe or agree with.

Pride does indeed come before the fall.

__________________
Simon Adebisi is offline  
Old 08-14-2001, 11:39 AM   #4
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 05:24 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by melon:
These are my opinions. Feel free to respond, knowing 1) this isn't the gospel truth, and 2) I do not intend to offend anyone personally. If you do not agree to these terms, then get out of this topic!

1) I think conservatism is inherently evil. I think it is evil wearing a shroud of goodness...perhaps the greatest evil of them all. I think it is conservatives that advance the destruction of the world in their attempts to 'save the world.' And, of course, I cannot prove this. It is something that has sat in the annals of my conscience for years.

2) Conservatism tends to expouse religion, but they are wrong 75% of the time. I have read chapter-verse quotes on signs to justify hatred of people, and when I go back to my own Bible, I find it has nothing to do with what they hate. I have read more conservative translations of the Bible and they are generally the loosest in their translations! More 'liberal' translations use their basis on the original Greek/Hebrew words. 'Conservative' translations tend to just use the traditional translation and just expound on it. For instance, in a copy of the NIV, the Sodom and Gomorrah passage states, 'Bring out your men so that we may have sex with them.' I couldn't be more angrier on that, especially since the word, 'sex,' isn't even used in the Hebrew text. I would have preferred the original translation, 'Bring out your men so that we may know them.' Why? This passage is quoted like 5 different times later in the Bible and they don't refer to it as meaning anything sexual. I think it is poor scholarship mounted with conservative bigotry.

3) Conservatism expound religion, while also expounding vicious free-market capitalism. Once again, the advancement of the destruction of the world (e.g., sinking the third-world into poverty and subservience to multinational corporations), while thinking they are doing good.

4) Conservatism forces their beliefs onto everyone else. Liberalism, while you may not like it, at least gives you the option to choose your fate. If it were up to extreme conservatives, there would be maybe 5 religions--all Calvinist Protestant sects. We wouldn't be allowed to do anything--liquor would probably be banned, all non-Christians would be either killed or wholly silenced, homosexuals would be killed, movies would be censored, free speech would be censored, schools would teach nothing but tripe interspersed with religion, science would die altogether as all things that contradict the Bible would be made devoid, pseudo-science would reign, media would be a Soviet-style propaganda arm, and we'd be forced to the whims of some theocratic despot. We'd have repeated many of the same mistakes that led to the Reformation. In liberalism, at least, you're fully allowed to do most of these things if you really want to as long as you don't hurt anyone.

5) It's just as hypocritical as any of their complaints against liberals--while complaining of 'liberal censorship,' they have plenty of their own censorship. Whatever happened to that post by Satan? It was definitely bordering on poor taste, but, in reading it, it has just as much a place on this forum as anything here. It never went out of hand, but because conservatives didn't like the scathing criticism of their ideology, it was closed. And yet, a generally baseless original post on hating liberalism was upheld. How interesting.

6) It's incredibly revisionist. Look at the 'Founding Fathers' tripe we hear. We always hear how the founding fathers intended America to be this Christian state, but it couldn't be more wrong! Most all of our founding fathers were agnostics or believers of what the 700 Club would call, 'New-Age religions.' Christianity went into a decline in the Americas first after the failure of Puritanism after the witch trials and almost completely after the collapse of the Anglicanism with the British defeat in the American revolution. Our founding fathers were heavily influenced by Enlightenment religions that came out of the French Revolution. By the time that Christianity became reborn in America, it was 1838 and they were all dead. When Jefferson wrote his treatise on the 'separation of church and state' in the First Amendment in 1801 (which is where that phrase came from), he meant exactly as it's currently interpreted. He'd be rolling in his grave over the current 'faith-based' plan that Bush has. Plus, need I remind you, the 'one nation under God' part of the Pledge of Allegiance wasn't originally in there. It was added by President Eisenhower in the mid-1950s.

7) Read that 'I'm a Bad American' post. Need I say more?

Well, overall, what I want out of this post is a real discussion--no calls for deletion. And no, I'm not some unmovable individual. I'm always more than happy to modify my beliefs...that's what a discussion is all about.

Take care all, and to the conservatives in this forum: don't take what I wrote personally. It's a post on an ideology, not the people in here. I would be genuinely interested in what you have to say on this post, as long as it's a fairly intelligent retort.
Melon
My rebuttal, point by point:
1)Point one is, you have admitted, pure unprovable opinion on your part, so there is no way or need to argue it. We all have opinions.
2)You do realize that when you speak of Conservatives who twist the scriptures to justify their hate you are speaking about a VERY VERY SMALL group of people, don't you? Even here in the BIble belt, you don't hear that stuff much. Also, surely as the Hebrew Scholar that you are, you are aware that the term "to know" Biblically means "to have sex with", right?
3)I'm sorry, but Point 3 is just silly. To claim that conservative support of capitalism is destroying the world is completely baseless and unsupportd by facts.
4)You couldn't be further from the truth, Melon. In fact, conservatives fight for freedom for everyone. Does your anger have anything to do with the fact that most conservatives don't believe in legalizing gay marriage?
5)This is another one that is just plain silly. What makes you think that the "Satan" post was deleted because Conservatives were upset? If that were the case, wouldn't all the anti-George W. Bush posts have been deleted also? Also, you seem to forget that much of that Satan post was against New World Order (Globalism at its extreme), which is a very liberally-supported issue.

6)Some of the founding fathers were indeed followers of "new age" religion, but you can hardly say "most". Many were Christians. Most of the others, while not Christian in the sense that God takes an active part in our lives, were at least Believers in God, who followed the Deism, which was a popular belief of the day that the world is like a clock that God winds up and watches wind down, w/out taking an active role. But teh belief in God is still there. And believe me, I studied these things in college, so I priobably know as much about it as you.

7)I believed in much of what Mr. Nugent wrote.
__________________
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 08-14-2001, 12:23 PM   #5
Refugee
 
bonoman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Edmonton, Canada- Charlestown, Ireland
Posts: 1,398
Local Time: 03:24 AM
time to sit back and watch some of the powerhouses play. Take notes and learn.

------------------
Running to Stand Still-"you gotta cry without weeping, talk without speaking, scream without raising your voice."

"we're not burning out we're burning up...we're the loudest folk band in the world!"-Bono
__________________
bonoman is offline  
Old 08-14-2001, 12:38 PM   #6
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
DrTeeth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: The Q continuum
Posts: 4,770
Local Time: 11:24 AM
..and laugh!

Don't forget that one!
__________________
DrTeeth is offline  
Old 08-14-2001, 12:41 PM   #7
Acrobat
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 399
Local Time: 10:24 AM
I don't like Mondays.
__________________
Trash Can is offline  
Old 08-14-2001, 04:36 PM   #8
The Fly
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: LA
Posts: 82
Local Time: 10:24 AM
This is such a silly thread.

~rougerum



[This message has been edited by Henry Rollins (edited 08-14-2001).]
__________________
Henry Rollins is offline  
Old 08-14-2001, 05:26 PM   #9
The Fly
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 31
Local Time: 10:24 AM
Sorry!



[This message has been edited by Cathy (edited 08-14-2001).]
__________________
Cathy is offline  
Old 08-15-2001, 02:54 AM   #10
Kid A
 
The Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Holy Roman Empire
Posts: 5,271
Local Time: 05:24 AM
tickle the duke, useless pricks

translation: go f*** yourselves, douchebags
__________________
The Wanderer is offline  
Old 08-15-2001, 08:14 AM   #11
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 05:24 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by The Wanderer:
tickle the duke, useless pricks

translation: go f*** yourselves, douchebags
That's nice.

__________________
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 08-15-2001, 05:35 PM   #12
The Fly
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: LA
Posts: 82
Local Time: 10:24 AM
The new cinamon apple jacks taste alright but not as good as the original.

~rougerum
__________________
Henry Rollins is offline  
Old 08-15-2001, 06:55 PM   #13
Babyface
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: somewhere in the daylight
Posts: 11
Local Time: 10:24 AM
err I'm not very good at arguing points but I think conservatism is meant to keep guidelines of respect for others in our society but i'm prolly completely wrong

well actually I am anyway, because it's just a good excuse to be narrow-minded. here's one: is it truly possible to be conservative and yet totally accepting of anything? I think it is cos if you but out of everyone's business, you can live your life conservatively and yet happily coexist with anything

sure that made a lot of sense! lol
__________________
shadow is offline  
Old 08-16-2001, 03:03 AM   #14
Acrobat
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 399
Local Time: 10:24 AM
I don't like Mullett haircuts.
__________________
Trash Can is offline  
Old 08-16-2001, 03:13 AM   #15
the invisible woman
 
SweetOnU2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Bono's Lap
Posts: 2,629
Local Time: 03:24 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Trash Can:
I don't like Mullett haircuts.



.... this is very interesting!



------------------
~*Dream Out loud*~

(º·.¸(¨*·.¸ ¸.·*¨)¸.·º)
«.·°·. *Monica* .·°·.»
(¸.·º(¸.·¨* *¨·.¸)º·.)
__________________

__________________
SweetOnU2 is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:24 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com