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Old 11-27-2004, 07:35 PM   #16
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I have to confess that there was a girl. Greek was great to study, it may not be the most useful language to know but it may come in handy. I want to see the world, so maybe I should learn esperanto
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Old 11-27-2004, 07:37 PM   #17
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how much of america have you seen? if any?
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Old 11-27-2004, 07:42 PM   #18
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I have never been over there if thats what you mean, I have a whole set of Canadian relatives (hey, it's still part of N-America ). I do try to watch the Newshour with Jim Lehrer when I can, it has the best discussions of political issues on TV (go Brooks ).

My travel credentials are not that large (yet), I have been to UK, Greece, New Zealand, Guam. But I am preparing my linguistic skils for when the time comes.
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Old 11-27-2004, 07:48 PM   #19
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america's landscape is so diverse. there's so much more here that i want to see too.
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Old 11-27-2004, 07:48 PM   #20
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A Wanderer -- i agree with your idealized scenario if Iraq were to prove to be successful, but have any of the current adminstration's actions since the end of ground combat and that silly "mission accomplished" bru-ha-ha given you *any* confidence in their ability to successfully steer Iraq from dictatorship to democracy? it seems to me that this is a sensationally difficult thing to pull off, and the way things have been bungled (to put it mildly) over the past 18 months have made a successful outcome pretty much impossible.

which is what those of us who protested the invasion of Iraq were thinking in the beginning (or at least some of us ... i'm not a "no blood for oil" kind of protester). not that the creation of a stable democracy in the Middle East was a bad thing, or a bad goal; rather it is a good thing, a good goal, and the people in charge in Washington were *exactly* the wrong people to do such a thing.

on a side note, i have a date with an Aussie-in-America tomorrow. i, too, love all non-American accents. except Canadian (no offense, just reminds me of Fargo). but Brits, Aussies, Scots, Irish ... love 'em all.
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Old 11-27-2004, 07:55 PM   #21
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I disagree, we here cannot make a difference so it is a moot point. I see things differently than you, mistakes have been made but there have been a lot of sucesses - compared to other efforts of nation building I would say it is moving forward, and in the context of its magnitude it is going better than I would have expected. Iraq is not going to hell, it can suceed and it needs all the help we can give to make it so. The blowback from failure here is too dark to comprehend.

We will see how it goes, and I think that it will be right in the world.

In a purely non-offensive way can I just say that I was reminded of a Protest Warrior sign when I saw that bit in your post about it being a noble goal but the wrong people; it went something like NO WAR! unless a democrat is president.
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Old 11-27-2004, 07:56 PM   #22
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mmmmmm irish accents..........
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Old 11-27-2004, 07:59 PM   #23
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well i'm off to bed. it's 11 here and i have to get up in the morning. ta ta!
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Old 11-27-2004, 08:02 PM   #24
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So long and stay safe.
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Old 11-27-2004, 08:03 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
The blowback from failure here is too dark to comprehend.

agreed on that. i hope it succeeds, but i do see the situation on the ground differently. and i hope you're right and i'm wrong. i'd gladly eat crow and lose the "i told you so" rights if it means that Iraq is successfully. but i don't think so. i think we're going to see something akin to a cut-and-run if/when elections are held in january. in Washington, the word on the street (and skepticism is needed, but i'm just relaying what people are talking about in the bars around here) is that the administration has essentially written off all their original intentions, and are looking for an out and a way to save face, and are perfectly fine in letting Iraq fight it's own civil war in the not-so-distant future.

but i would say that the unilateral invasion -- even before the first bomb fell -- already represented a massive failure in the eyes of the Arab Street. it was done wrongly from the beginning, and we're going to have to contend with a newly created generation of terrorists for the next 50 years.
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Old 11-27-2004, 08:05 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
it went something like NO WAR! unless a democrat is president.

well, fair or not, the Republicans do give off the impression that they love it when we use our bombs and tanks and airplanes to blow shit up. there's an unapologetic nationalism alive and well in wings of the Republican party, and they are adamant about their belief in the near-infallability of America's "mission" in the world, and that military force is a necessary component of this national evangelicalism.

and that terrifies me to no end.
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Old 11-27-2004, 08:51 PM   #27
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I think America did the right thing by going in "unilaterally." Saddam and Chirac and Annan had their hands in the oil-for-food pot while no one was watching. In the end, our unilateral actions have not only called their bluff, but gotten some serious discussions going on how to reform the UN and make it relevant.
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Old 11-28-2004, 08:28 PM   #28
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is the relevancy of the UN worth 100,000 iraqi lives and well over 10,000 american casualties (not just deaths)? have *any* of the stated goals/reasons for the invasion been met? is the US and the rest of the western world really safer now than in 2002? can we honestly look at this as any kind of success, or are we calling anything that isn't a disaster a success?
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Old 11-28-2004, 08:36 PM   #29
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It is interesting that you will only count the lives lost in the invasion of Iraq.

The loss of lives is deplorable, but why only count those?

Where was the UN in Rwanda, when 800,000 died? Should we count those?

Sudan, since 1981...about 2 million and rising. Is the UN involved? Where is the UN's relevancy there?

Sierra Leone, East Timor, etc etc etc.

Why is everyone bent on singling out the Iraq conflict, as dodgy as it may be? Do Africans and southeast Asians not matter?

The U.N. needs a serious revamp.
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Old 11-28-2004, 08:41 PM   #30
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i agree the UN has issues, and the Rawandan massacre does stand as a horrendous failure. i'm pointing to iraq dead and wounded because your earlier post applauded the unilateral invasion of Iraq (sorry, a few thousand brits and aussies does not a coalition make in the modern world) as a means of getting the UN together. do you really think that's what's going to happen? or is the rest of the world, including the UN, simply going to be more hostile to any and all US intentions in the future?

also, where was the US in all those countries you mentioned? clearly we think Iraqi Democracy is more important than, say, Liberia, where we have legitimate historical ties. or Rawanda. or Sudan. or Sierra Leon. or East Timor.

sorry, pointing out the UN's flaws does not absolve the US of a single thing.
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