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Old 11-26-2004, 09:59 PM   #61
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Originally posted by joerags
DaveC

Your arguments are cogent. For me, I don't believe there is a God or that Jesus ever existed. I am not here to bash or belittle Christians. I just feel sorry for them for believing in something that doesn't exist. But if it makes them a better human being, that's great.... I am all for people who do good and do charity and help others.. It's not going to get them any closer to a so-called heaven...
If I am wrong and that Jesus did exist, he was not the Messiah. He was just another philospher, just like Aristotle or Socrates, who pretty much preached the same things that Jesus preached, like help others and do good for others...

Hey, it takes a lot more faith to believe that there is no God than to believe in one. I don't tell you that I feel sorry for you---please don't belittle me becuase of what I believe.

Secondly, the argument about Jesus being a really great man...makes no sense. If that was the truth then his death was totally meaningless and had no purpose or bearing. Something happened....his followers never expected what happened (his rising from the dead) to happen and in a matter of days they went from hiding for thier lives to openly not caring if they were killed or not for thier faith. People don't just do a 180 like that for nothing.

I'm going to bed...g'night.
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Old 11-26-2004, 10:10 PM   #62
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Hey, it takes a lot more faith to believe that there is no God than to believe in one.
No, it really doesn't. I'd say it's about an equal amount of faith involved to believe in anything that cannot be proven. And that would be an immense amount.
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Old 11-26-2004, 10:12 PM   #63
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Again, the story of Jesus is a fictional story..

I repeat:

It's a fictional story.


He rose from the dead is a great ending to a story... People in ancient Egypt and ancient Rome wanted to believe that there is an after-life.... So whoever made up this ficitional story chose that ending, to make him believable. But Jesus never existed. The whole story of Jesus is an old-wives tale, spread by these nutty people who were the early Christians.

I feel like I am beating a dead horse.
I will say this for the last time

JESUS NEVER EXISTED!!!!!!!!!
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Old 11-26-2004, 10:13 PM   #64
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Signs and imagery of Jesus' crucifixion were prophecized in The Old Testament before crucifixion was even invented. Psalms is where I've found quite a few references, and with the help of a Study Bible, I can interpret the Gospel better than I would without it.
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Old 11-26-2004, 10:16 PM   #65
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Originally posted by DaveC


No, it really doesn't. I'd say it's about an equal amount of faith involved to believe in anything that cannot be proven. And that would be an immense amount.
I find that non-believers create their own religion trying to prove Christianity is wrong. I see that as a waste of a lifetime, when it's improved the quality of life, given us a better work ethic, a moral compass, ahh... the benefits are too many to get started with. Me, I just feel better about myself and I feel at peace when I have God on my mind.
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Old 11-26-2004, 10:18 PM   #66
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Originally posted by joerags
JESUS NEVER EXISTED!!!!!!!!!


Argh, JoeRags....you are disputing a historical fact that there was a Jesus. There are several historical references proving his existence. Whether or not you believe he is the Messiah is another thing....Geez, at least DaveC has a semblance of historical relevancy to explain his viewpoint.
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Old 11-26-2004, 10:24 PM   #67
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Jesus did exist but the way in which most people believe that he did or didn't exist is wrong. Jesus was the first child of Mary and Joseph (he was born outside of weddlock), he had brothers and sisters and by the time he died he had a wife and children who fled to France (this is for real, I suggest you take a look at Barabra Thiering's works). Most of the Jesus stuff is POLITICAL TO THE EXTREME. The God thing on the other hand is something that I'm not sure about. I'd like to think that I have more than this to look forward to, but then again hey....whatever

Cheers and have fun.
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Old 11-26-2004, 10:27 PM   #68
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Yeah, I'm starting to think that I'm just wasting my time with "open-minded" people who insist that my Savior never existed without providing factual, historical evidence to support it. DaveC I can understand a little better, because he's not out to offend anybody.
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Old 11-26-2004, 10:36 PM   #69
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Also... I think it's weird that there's an argument within atheism. There are so many theories, like "Author X says blah blah blah"... "No, Jesus never existed, I can't support this and that is my 2 cents"...

Wow. You don't even agree with why you disagree. How is this going to change my mind?
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Old 11-27-2004, 12:36 AM   #70
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Pardon my triple post, but hopefully I can inspire some of those who have been impacted the most in Northern Ireland.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
If you'll allow me to briefly paraphrase prophecy in the Gospel: Many will come in his name (such as religious fanatics, etc) and many will be deceived. But those who stand firm will be rewarded.
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What's going on in Northern Ireland directly relates to Jesus' warnings about watching out for false prophets. It doesn't have to mean these people will claim to be God themselves, but they certainly recreated God in their own image and give him a terrible name.

The only war I could safely say that Jesus will win is The War On Spirituality. Do not give up the faith, my friends. God is LOVE, God is MERCIFUL. God is JUST. God is NOT HATE. God is NOT RELIGION. God is NOT FALSEHOOD.
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Old 11-27-2004, 03:54 AM   #71
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Joerags i have to say i believe a lot of the things you are saying. But that doesn't mean i'm criticising the rest of you!! I have a lot of respect for people who believe in god, it takes a lot of faith to believe in something you haven't seen!!
Although i don't believe in god, i do believe in heaven and hell. Because we're all living in hell right now and when we die we are in heaven,because we don't have to deal with the pain of this life anymore!!
But i guess this is a whole different topic of debate!!
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Old 11-27-2004, 06:37 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally posted by joerags
Again, the story of Jesus is a fictional story..

I repeat:

It's a fictional story.


He rose from the dead is a great ending to a story... People in ancient Egypt and ancient Rome wanted to believe that there is an after-life.... So whoever made up this ficitional story chose that ending, to make him believable. But Jesus never existed. The whole story of Jesus is an old-wives tale, spread by these nutty people who were the early Christians.

I feel like I am beating a dead horse.
I will say this for the last time

JESUS NEVER EXISTED!!!!!!!!!
In your original post... I think you stated that up until 4 days ago you were a "believer" and now you are not. That’s pretty quick to become so sure of something. Life a micro evolution , we learn and change constantly... in 5 years time the way you view life and god and god-stuff will be different than it is now. Don’t get caught up in your own stuff.. keep learning and evolving and that means going into Atheism - so be it. It’s as much a religion as anything else... probably more reading involved ... but it’s an ever-changing viewpoint. Science isn’t the same as it was 200 years ago... it’s not the same as it was 10 years ago. Theories are proven and shown to be incorrect daily. Any scientist will tell you there are few "facts" in science, only theories....
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Old 11-27-2004, 06:46 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally posted by shooboxx

Any scientist will tell you there are few "facts" in science, only theories....


That´s a really good point!
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Old 11-27-2004, 06:57 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally posted by DaveC
But Jesus was human, so the Bible says, in his time on Earth until the time of his ascension into Heaven.

But Jesus never sinned.

Therefore, if every human sins, and Jesus did not sin, we can infer that Jesus Christ was not truly human. So therefore doesn't that sort of nullify the sacrifice made...?
Dave,

You would have enjoyed the class I am in...we spent about three hours on this the other day. This is almost EXACTLY the debate that occured in the early church councils.

I would say this, so much time is/was spent on this topic....that the message and example of the Christ story is missed.

And I love to talk about things like this.
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Old 11-27-2004, 06:59 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally posted by DaveC


Ahh, you didn't read my post at all. That wasn't what I meant when I said modern Christianity is bastardized. I meant that the New Testament is completely modified, aspects of Jesus' life, death, resurrection, ascension, etc...they were all changed in 325 AD at the Council of Nicaea.

The entire Bible was revised, basically, akin to taking a textbook you wrote on Biology and adding new information, subtracting old ideas based on new research, or even just continuity of information.

The idea of Jesus as we know Him today was actually formed almost 300 years after his death and resurrection.

[/history major]
While you and I may agree on this, theologians still believe there are things in the four Gospels that actually reflect the true meaning of the Christ story.
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